Hounslow Hilt

[urbanspaceman]

I've started this new thread because we had hijacked the Border Reivers subject considerably.
What I am trying to establish is how did the very distinctive hilt used on Hounslow Hangars (see image) develop?
It seems to appear from nowhere in my experience (limited) and share no resemblance to anything before or after.
Any pointers regarding it's provenance would be much appreciated.

[Jim McDougall]

This is an excellent idea Keith to take this topic to its own thread, and to be honest I have never really pursued the origins or influences which were likely to have inspired these distinctive hilts of Hounslow. I have transferred the images of my example to place with the discourse.

As noted in other discussion, my example appears to be one of these hangers with serrated back produced (or assembled) there c. 1630-40 for maritime use (in that parlance regarded as cutlass of course). Having noted that, it seems that woodcut images of pirate figures of the 'Golden Age' of piracy in latter 17th century have somewhat similar hilted examples in a number of them. These seem contemporary to the familiar shellguard dusagges of European origin.

[Peter Hudson]

Hello Keith and Jim, I suspect that this type of sword probably overlaps when considering Border Reivers but I like also the idea of its own thread such is the importance of Hounslow... I seem to recall a blade with a strange date of 1553 ? What does that signify ?

Is it anything to do with Lady Jane Grey or ...perhaps the year in which The Great Bible appears?

Regards, Peter.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Peter Hudson

Hello Keith and Jim, I suspect that this type of sword probably overlaps when considering Border Reivers but I like also the idea of its own thread such is the importance of Hounslow... I seem to recall a blade with a strange date of 1553 ? What does that signify ?

Is it anything to do with Lady Jane Grey or ...perhaps the year in which The Great Bible appears?

Regards, Peter.

Peter as we were noting on that blade, which was actually on a Hounslow type hilt, the 'date' or numbers if standing virtually alone, might be regarded as a talismanic number or device. These are typically four numbers as seen in date/years but actually are number combinations with coded values.

These have to do with similar combining of numeric values in occult, magic and astrological symbolism regarding good fortune, strength, protection etc.
and were seen as imbuements of 'magic' in the blades. While obviously seen with skepticism in modern times, it must be remembered that in earlier times, superstition and often supernatural beliefs were profoundly present.

[Peter Hudson]

Hello Jim ...ah yes I see that and it is a puzzle and so close a date to the Queen Jane situation although she was executed in 1554......I just cannot see how it is a relevant date...but I could be wrong. The Great Bible came out in 1553... The answer is; I dont know!!

There is another ANNO but with another date on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=1553 and the 1553 sword also appears at # 11

Peter Hudson.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Peter Hudson

Hello Jim ...ah yes I see that and it is a puzzle and so close a date to the Queen Jane situation although she was executed in 1554......I just cannot see how it is a relevant date...but I could be wrong. The Great Bible came out in 1553... The answer is; I dont know!!

There is another ANNO but with another date on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=1553 and the 1553 sword also appears at # 11

Peter Hudson.

Exactly, a lot of ideas have suggested Biblical passages and key dates (years) as being possible representations, but commemorative dates typically have other context, and Biblical passages are not typically singularly placed alone without some specific purpose.
The word 'anno' of course means 'in' , but what else. A makers name or the name Solingen or 'me fecit' usually would accompany 'anno'.
However the fact that blades with spurious markings were well known in shops in Solingen, and the conventions of the use of these rather consistent marks, words, phrases and names of famed makers were used in variation by various shops and workers.

The fact that Solingen blades were indeed being filtered into Solingen despite the objective of 'imported' German workers intended to produce the blades in England, suggests deliberate 'salting' of Hounslow produced swords.

In present research, regarding the possible origins of the Hounslow 'type' hilts, I found some valuable insights in the late Ewart Oakeshott's "European weapons and Armor" (1980), p.153.
It shows a line drawing of an English bowmans sword c.1450, with a hilt that has remarkably similar structure in the guard with knucklebow. If compared to the Hounslow hilt, it is simply a more embellished version with the capped pommel, and the bilobate shell type counterguard.
This would seem more in line with the type of baroque designs that were becoming popular at the beginning of the 17th century, and the expanded shell guards simply more of a palate for often more elaborate motif.

These hanger type swords had evolved from the Continent and the much earlier stout chopping blade falchions, and the upswept knuckle guard simply the kind of developing types of guards.

It would seem that the 'Wakefield' hanger of that battle of the "Wars of the Roses" (1455-1487) and from an English bowmans sword (ironically an oblique connection to the concurrent thread on the English longbow).....might plausibly be the source for the hilt style. After all, in the early 17th century, the same strife between the Royal Houses in English monarchy between that of Lancaster and York still prevailed.
Sword hilts and forms often prevailed for long periods as we know, and the basic form of this historic English form, in more embellished style in accord with the then modern period early 17th c. would seem likely emplaced

The attached plate from Oakeshott (1980, p.153) figure A shows the compelling structural resemblance noted. .

[urbanspaceman]

Jane Grey was crowned in 1553.
Her husband Guildford, and his father (Earl of Northumberland: John Dudley) were both executed in 1553; along with two of Guildford's brothers.
Jane was nearly pardoned but in the end, by 1554, it was all over bar the shouting.
Equally, Mary Tudor was crowned queen in 1553 having deposed Jane.
It was all about 1553.
It is, however, entirely possible that the blade was given a new hilt at Hounslow a century later.
ps
Mary made a 'Percy' Earl of Northumberland and also gave him Cumberland.
He was the one who contested Elizabeth's right to take copper from his land during the Battle of the Mines Royal. Eventually, Lizzy chopped his head off.

[urbanspaceman]

Thank-you Jim, there is a strong resemblance, especially taken together.

[Triarii]

Curse you Urbanspaceman, I'm a big C17th nerd and I hadn't thought of this. Now it's bugging me.

I had thought that why in England are the so-called Hounslow hangers the only mid C17th British swords with curved blades, the basket hilts with 'Turkie' or 'semetry' blades recommended for 1630s militia notwithstanding, though I have only seen one surviving C17th Turcael and that's Royal Armouries No IX. 1015.

My theory is that the hangers were hunting swords, whose shape continued into the C20th. The staghorn grips and sawback blade on some reflecting their supposed use in dismembering deer etc. Their hilts are only seen in ornate forms, with chiselled and / or black and silver hilts, never in munition quality, so possibly carried by militia and trained bands officers and then becoming more widespread in the 1640s.

I have three, one with staghorn grip, one with a fluted bone grip and one with a wood(?) wrapped grip.

That's my pet theory anyway.

[Jim McDougall]

So Triarii, there is someone else out there with this rare affliction!
Over the years it seems I have seen other 'turcael' but the one in Royal Armouries stands as the most readily accessible. Its like the fabled Scottish claymore (the real two handers), it is yet unclear how many of the genuine article survive, offhand it seems only about 6 or so. These things seem often to remain in obscurity often in clan holdings.

The hunting swords were indeed hangers/cuttoes which paralleled the munitions grade examples for military use. The general design as noted in the 'hirschfanger' did of course remain traditionally in place into 20th century.
These early hangers in Hounslow were of course used as 'hunting swords' however many references note these as intended for maritime use. While the serrated back was useful in the hunt for field dressing, at sea, these short, stout blades with that feature served well in clearing decks of rope etc.
While having these utilitarian intents, it is important to note that 'the hunt' was an event of the gentry and those of station. Naval officers also were inclined to have notable standing in the gentry.

The 'Hounslow school' or style did carry well through the 17th century even after the demise of that compound by just after mid century, and somewhat traditionally into the 18th.

Sure would like to see your examples!

[Triarii]

I think we're agreeing that for land and sea service they were initially gentry swords - hence only being seen in more ornate versions in the mid C17th before evolving into more munition quality for sea service. They continue through the late C17th but the pommel style changes and the blades get narrower.

Here are mine: