Flyssa family

Emanuel · 27th November 2010, 02:14 PM

Hello everyone,

I thought I'd throw some flyssa up on the forum since I haven't seen any new ones in a while. The smallest at the top is 16" overall, the longest at the bottom is 46" overall. Lots of variety, no two are alike. The longest is VERY heavy, makes the 36" regular long ones feel light as a feather.

Emanuel

Emanuel · 27th November 2010, 02:16 PM

Spines range from 8mm-12mm.

Iain · 27th November 2010, 03:02 PM

Fantastic collection! Thanks for posting it, I really like group views, helps to illustrate the variety in a given type.

The longest one seems particularly old? Or maybe just the darker patina is fooling me.

Are there good period photos with Kabyle carrying these (postcards maybe)?

ariel · 27th November 2010, 04:08 PM

My understanding is that flyssas were designed for slashing. But the long ones are almost impossible to wield in any way, except for using them as a lance. Am I right?

Emanuel · 27th November 2010, 05:00 PM

It's the balance that I find problematic, not the weight. Very slow recovery from traditional fencing techniques. In estoc the balance is problematic again, you need strong arms to hold the flyssa in a lunge for any length of time. I have some ideas about wielding these more effectively in slashing but I'll need some confirmation.

No actual photos Iain, just a drawing of a "Guerrier Kabyle" in Armes Africaines I think. It's been reproduced here on the forum before.

Jim McDougall · 27th November 2010, 05:53 PM

Emanuel, its always great when you come in with these flyssas, and as always I am completely captivated by the often subtle variations in these distinctive motifs. It really is hard to imagine how much is talismanic and how much has become simply traditionally thematic.

In all the years we have discussed the flyssa, it seems we have never really determined how these were used, just as mentioned here in the posts. I have always thought of these as awkwardly balanced, but that they must have been produced as they consistantly are for a reason. Obviously, if not being handled as intended, they would of course feel ill balanced, and clearly the longer examples are the most likely to seem so.

There are as far as I know, few who have collected and studied the flyssa with the tenacity you have, and I always look forward to the new examples and discoveries you make. I have often wondered if there might be French narratives from the occupation in Saharan regions which perhaps may have some descriptions of these in use. I know one of the earliest provenanced examples I ever located was in the French Foreign Legion museum in France, and was captured in battle with Kabyles in 1857, but no details other than a photo were sent. As often the case, it is difficult to carry out in depth queries with French officials with the language barrier, at least in my experience. I am always grateful for those here who generously help with translations.

It seems in most cases, the flyssa is described as a cavalry weapon, but if I understand correctly, Kabyle regions are largely highly terrained, and would seem unlikely for cavalry actions except on certain plained regions. The illustrations as noted are usually of infantry type forces. If this weapon were used as a lance, there is no protection or stop for the hand, and if I perceive correctly, the penetration would effectively disarm the one using it. Again, with my limited understanding of martial techniques, perhaps my explanation is simplistic.

The slashing use seems understandable, and the terrible balance might not seem as pertinant if momentum would compensate, but then why the needle point so typical on these, and presumed for armor piercing through mail ?

Well, these are the same questions I always drag out, but cant resist bringing up again

Thanks again for showing these great examples Emanuel, as always beautifully done!!!

All the best,
Jim

Emanuel · 3rd December 2010, 04:54 PM

Hi Jim,

I'm thinking at next year's Timonium I'll come along with my flyssa collection for people to handle and maybe have a stand with the info we have to date on these. IIRC, you made a presentation on the lfyssa a few years ago Jim.
I expect I'll have pictures of the oldest dated flyssa from the Madrid Royal Armoury museum by then.

I've contacted the Musée des Invalides about any flyssa in their collection but have yet to receive any replies.

Interestingly, perusing through colonial French archaeological publications I came upon an early adectode of a local Marabout (saint, Muslim teacher figure in the Maghreb) who was said to carry an unusual very long sabre. No more info was given in that particular anecdote but I'm starting to wonder whether these swords did not have a very specific use and context, more subtle than just a 'cavalry weapon'.

As for use, I'm thinking about the flyssa used in a way similar to what we see in Gatka and Shastar Vidiya, where wide sweeping and whirling slashes are made, leading with the hilt instead of the point. In that situation, and from my limited and amateurish eperimentation, the flyssa is not a bad weapon.

Anyway, more food for thought from an addict

All the best and drive safe!
Emanuel

27th November 2010, 02:14 PM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Flyssa family Hello everyone, I thought I'd throw some flyssa up on the forum since I haven't seen any new ones in a while. The smallest at the top is 16" overall, the longest at the bottom is 46" overall. Lots of variety, no two are alike. The longest is VERY heavy, makes the 36" regular long ones feel light as a feather. Emanuel Attached Images

27th November 2010, 02:16 PM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Spines range from 8mm-12mm. Attached Images

27th November 2010, 03:02 PM	#3
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Fantastic collection! Thanks for posting it, I really like group views, helps to illustrate the variety in a given type. The longest one seems particularly old? Or maybe just the darker patina is fooling me. Are there good period photos with Kabyle carrying these (postcards maybe)?

27th November 2010, 04:08 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	My understanding is that flyssas were designed for slashing. But the long ones are almost impossible to wield in any way, except for using them as a lance. Am I right?

27th November 2010, 05:00 PM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	It's the balance that I find problematic, not the weight. Very slow recovery from traditional fencing techniques. In estoc the balance is problematic again, you need strong arms to hold the flyssa in a lunge for any length of time. I have some ideas about wielding these more effectively in slashing but I'll need some confirmation. No actual photos Iain, just a drawing of a "Guerrier Kabyle" in Armes Africaines I think. It's been reproduced here on the forum before.

27th November 2010, 05:53 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Emanuel, its always great when you come in with these flyssas, and as always I am completely captivated by the often subtle variations in these distinctive motifs. It really is hard to imagine how much is talismanic and how much has become simply traditionally thematic. In all the years we have discussed the flyssa, it seems we have never really determined how these were used, just as mentioned here in the posts. I have always thought of these as awkwardly balanced, but that they must have been produced as they consistantly are for a reason. Obviously, if not being handled as intended, they would of course feel ill balanced, and clearly the longer examples are the most likely to seem so. There are as far as I know, few who have collected and studied the flyssa with the tenacity you have, and I always look forward to the new examples and discoveries you make. I have often wondered if there might be French narratives from the occupation in Saharan regions which perhaps may have some descriptions of these in use. I know one of the earliest provenanced examples I ever located was in the French Foreign Legion museum in France, and was captured in battle with Kabyles in 1857, but no details other than a photo were sent. As often the case, it is difficult to carry out in depth queries with French officials with the language barrier, at least in my experience. I am always grateful for those here who generously help with translations. It seems in most cases, the flyssa is described as a cavalry weapon, but if I understand correctly, Kabyle regions are largely highly terrained, and would seem unlikely for cavalry actions except on certain plained regions. The illustrations as noted are usually of infantry type forces. If this weapon were used as a lance, there is no protection or stop for the hand, and if I perceive correctly, the penetration would effectively disarm the one using it. Again, with my limited understanding of martial techniques, perhaps my explanation is simplistic. The slashing use seems understandable, and the terrible balance might not seem as pertinant if momentum would compensate, but then why the needle point so typical on these, and presumed for armor piercing through mail ? Well, these are the same questions I always drag out, but cant resist bringing up again Thanks again for showing these great examples Emanuel, as always beautifully done!!! All the best, Jim

3rd December 2010, 04:54 PM	#7
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Jim, I'm thinking at next year's Timonium I'll come along with my flyssa collection for people to handle and maybe have a stand with the info we have to date on these. IIRC, you made a presentation on the lfyssa a few years ago Jim. I expect I'll have pictures of the oldest dated flyssa from the Madrid Royal Armoury museum by then. I've contacted the Musée des Invalides about any flyssa in their collection but have yet to receive any replies. Interestingly, perusing through colonial French archaeological publications I came upon an early adectode of a local Marabout (saint, Muslim teacher figure in the Maghreb) who was said to carry an unusual very long sabre. No more info was given in that particular anecdote but I'm starting to wonder whether these swords did not have a very specific use and context, more subtle than just a 'cavalry weapon'. As for use, I'm thinking about the flyssa used in a way similar to what we see in Gatka and Shastar Vidiya, where wide sweeping and whirling slashes are made, leading with the hilt instead of the point. In that situation, and from my limited and amateurish eperimentation, the flyssa is not a bad weapon. Anyway, more food for thought from an addict All the best and drive safe! Emanuel