Intersting African? short sword

Andy Stevens · 7th December 2004, 03:20 PM

Hello All
Recently picked this creature up on Ebay. I thought it looked interesting and well what the hell, my wifes credit card knows no bounds. The weapon is 20" overall. The blade is 14" long and 2" at its widest "bulge". The working edge is still sharp and appears to have seen use. The back is unsharpened. Two fullers ? decoration run most of the blade lenghth. The guard is well made and fits tightly. The grips appear to be wooden slabs secured with a red dyed fabric wrapping. The ring at the end of the grip may be the tang curled over. When held the weapon feels well balanced and workman like with a good deal of weight at slashing tip. The scabbard could be a cut down military item, their is a piece of what looks like hand twisted cord (I have made several differant types of string from bark over the years and this looks similar) around the mouth of the scabbard and what looks like tooling to the leather. I would say that their is some age and sign of usage. Any thoughts?
I wont be offended it cost very little! Regards Andy.

dennee · 7th December 2004, 03:39 PM

The ring pommel and guard are suggestive of one type of Chinese dadao. Of course, the blade is not at all like the dadao. So at first glance, I am going to guess that this is a relatively recently made and possibly artificially aged "fantasy" piece made in China.

mmontoro · 7th December 2004, 03:40 PM

Hi Andy,
It looks pretty Chinese to me based on aspects of the hilt.

fearn · 7th December 2004, 05:19 PM

1st thought: Blade looks like a Masai seme. Waitaminnit, that hilt looks Chinese!

2nd thought: that blade could be chinese too. Their daggers (shou) are often leaf shaped.

3rd thought: maybe not a fantasy piece, but I'd simply say that it's Chinese. I disagree that it's a fantasy piece, but I suspect it's of relatively recent (i.e 20th century) origin. BTW, that scabbard is a bit unusual. Most of the weapons made for kung fu artists tend to have metal fixtures over wood (with some jians having a leather over wood with metal fixtures). This looks cheaper.

The other thing is that I know a bit about kung fu and wu shu, and it's a nonstandard weapon. To me, that's a sign of authenticity, since if you look at pics of martial artists from the 1900's, they have all manner of weird stuff, rather than the standardized things you see today.

Final verdict--it's somewhere between a long shou and a short dao, and it can be used as a butterfly dao from wing chun, as long as you can use that s-guard to do a reverse hold (flip the blade around your thumb to lay the blade along the inside of your forearm).

However, if you wanted an African blade, I'd be happy to relieve you of the burden of owning it..... :-)

Neat!

Freddy · 7th December 2004, 06:08 PM

I also don't think it's African. The other forum members might be right when they say Chinese. I think for a Maasai sword, the point is too sharp.

Here is a Maasai sword, called 'seme'. As you can see the point of the blade is more blunt. One can often find these on ebay, but you have to look for one particular detail, if you want a good maasai sword. The older blades have a rib (or ridge) running down the middle of the blade. The flat blades one often can buy on ebay are new. These are cut from plate steel and then the edges are sharpened.

dennee · 7th December 2004, 11:36 PM

Perhaps I was hasty out my ignorance of Chinese knives. Is the weapon double-edged? It appears that way to me in the photos, which would seem odd. The dadao-type guard, as on an actual dadao, is suggestive of a single-edged blade, since the turned down (or rather up, as the weapon sits in the scabbard) quillion presumably acts as knuckle guard, while the turned up one at the "back" can presumably be used to catch a blade, etc. If this is a double-edged knife, then it is more doubtful perhaps that it was used in the manner of a "butterfly knife." Not only could one cut oneself on the back edge, but the back quillion might get in the way of slashing or provide an opponent more opportunity to parry.

A dadao's long hilt, with the full tang looped into the ring pommel, seems to aid both leverage and balance for the heavy weapon. It seems unnecessary to a shorter stabbing/slashing weapon and would make it difficult to conceal, if one wished.

It may be that a country smith, used to constructing dadaos, knew only one way to hilt a weapon. Or again, it may be a more fanciful composite weapon (I am very skeptical of inexpensive pieces on eBay, especially supposed Chinese and Japanese antiques).

Anyway, you should probably post on the Chinese swords section of Sword Forum to get more attention to it.

Andy Stevens · 8th December 2004, 11:50 AM

Thanks for all the info. Its really very interesting. This weapon was sold on Ebay as being Indian, I thought from the picture it was some kind of African bush knife, now it turns out to be Chinese !! I,ve been looking through Oriental Arms sold gallery and they have a "19th c Chinese utillity / fighting knife " pictured that has a very similar scabbard to my example. There is also a "Chinese two handed heavy chopper" shown with a almost identical pommel ring and binding. Can anyone recommend a good book on Chinese weapons?

fearn · 8th December 2004, 01:23 PM

Actually, Dennee,

Ring hilts are common on Chinese daggers. The story is that you keep the blade in your boot, and to draw it, you reach down and hook it out by the ring. The ring on the bigger war swords could be used to hang it on a hook or in other similar ways.

In other words, ring hilts are common on chinese sabers and knives.

As I understand it, the genesis of the butterfly saber was that they were paired short sabers that were carried in the boots of monks who were out riding...

For an introductory book on chinese weapons, you might try Yang Jwing-Ming's Ancient Chinese Weapons, A Martial Artist's Guide. Note that this is an introduction for stylists, so it contains line drawings rather than photos.

Otherwise, you need to start looking at books about specific martial arts. As you've found out, there is a tremendous diversity of daos, and my experience is that the more you look, the more you find. Lots of martial arts masters came up with their own special weapons, and they can get pretty weird. Anyone ever seen a chicken foot dao, for instance?

If there's a good book out there for collectors, hopefully someone will bring it up. I don't know of one.

tom hyle · 9th December 2004, 02:00 AM

Is it my imagination, or is the groove closer to the back/false edge? Could this piece be reground from a more typical single edged blade? The hilt is definitely Chinese style. The scabbard appears to be Spanish colonial, as seen in Philippines, Mexico, etc.

Andy Stevens · 9th December 2004, 12:22 PM

Hello Tom
Ive been looking at old threads from the old forum . Check out "Chinese sword for discussion" posted by RS Sword on 01.31.2001. Phillip Toms scabbard description matches my example well, even down to the suspension loop. Interesting. By the way the lines on the bladeare fairly central, just my poor exscuse for a camera!

7th December 2004, 03:20 PM	#1
Andy Stevens Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: London Posts: 155	Intersting African? short sword Hello All Recently picked this creature up on Ebay. I thought it looked interesting and well what the hell, my wifes credit card knows no bounds. The weapon is 20" overall. The blade is 14" long and 2" at its widest "bulge". The working edge is still sharp and appears to have seen use. The back is unsharpened. Two fullers ? decoration run most of the blade lenghth. The guard is well made and fits tightly. The grips appear to be wooden slabs secured with a red dyed fabric wrapping. The ring at the end of the grip may be the tang curled over. When held the weapon feels well balanced and workman like with a good deal of weight at slashing tip. The scabbard could be a cut down military item, their is a piece of what looks like hand twisted cord (I have made several differant types of string from bark over the years and this looks similar) around the mouth of the scabbard and what looks like tooling to the leather. I would say that their is some age and sign of usage. Any thoughts? I wont be offended it cost very little! Regards Andy. Attached Images

7th December 2004, 05:19 PM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	1st thought: Blade looks like a Masai seme. Waitaminnit, that hilt looks Chinese! 2nd thought: that blade could be chinese too. Their daggers (shou) are often leaf shaped. 3rd thought: maybe not a fantasy piece, but I'd simply say that it's Chinese. I disagree that it's a fantasy piece, but I suspect it's of relatively recent (i.e 20th century) origin. BTW, that scabbard is a bit unusual. Most of the weapons made for kung fu artists tend to have metal fixtures over wood (with some jians having a leather over wood with metal fixtures). This looks cheaper. The other thing is that I know a bit about kung fu and wu shu, and it's a nonstandard weapon. To me, that's a sign of authenticity, since if you look at pics of martial artists from the 1900's, they have all manner of weird stuff, rather than the standardized things you see today. Final verdict--it's somewhere between a long shou and a short dao, and it can be used as a butterfly dao from wing chun, as long as you can use that s-guard to do a reverse hold (flip the blade around your thumb to lay the blade along the inside of your forearm). However, if you wanted an African blade, I'd be happy to relieve you of the burden of owning it..... :-) Neat! Last edited by fearn; 7th December 2004 at 07:06 PM. Reason: removing typo

7th December 2004, 03:39 PM	#2
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	The ring pommel and guard are suggestive of one type of Chinese dadao. Of course, the blade is not at all like the dadao. So at first glance, I am going to guess that this is a relatively recently made and possibly artificially aged "fantasy" piece made in China.

7th December 2004, 03:40 PM	#3
mmontoro Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 91	Hi Andy, It looks pretty Chinese to me based on aspects of the hilt.

7th December 2004, 06:08 PM	#5
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	I also don't think it's African. The other forum members might be right when they say Chinese. I think for a Maasai sword, the point is too sharp. Here is a Maasai sword, called 'seme'. As you can see the point of the blade is more blunt. One can often find these on ebay, but you have to look for one particular detail, if you want a good maasai sword. The older blades have a rib (or ridge) running down the middle of the blade. The flat blades one often can buy on ebay are new. These are cut from plate steel and then the edges are sharpened.

7th December 2004, 11:36 PM	#6
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	Perhaps I was hasty out my ignorance of Chinese knives. Is the weapon double-edged? It appears that way to me in the photos, which would seem odd. The dadao-type guard, as on an actual dadao, is suggestive of a single-edged blade, since the turned down (or rather up, as the weapon sits in the scabbard) quillion presumably acts as knuckle guard, while the turned up one at the "back" can presumably be used to catch a blade, etc. If this is a double-edged knife, then it is more doubtful perhaps that it was used in the manner of a "butterfly knife." Not only could one cut oneself on the back edge, but the back quillion might get in the way of slashing or provide an opponent more opportunity to parry. A dadao's long hilt, with the full tang looped into the ring pommel, seems to aid both leverage and balance for the heavy weapon. It seems unnecessary to a shorter stabbing/slashing weapon and would make it difficult to conceal, if one wished. It may be that a country smith, used to constructing dadaos, knew only one way to hilt a weapon. Or again, it may be a more fanciful composite weapon (I am very skeptical of inexpensive pieces on eBay, especially supposed Chinese and Japanese antiques). Anyway, you should probably post on the Chinese swords section of Sword Forum to get more attention to it.

8th December 2004, 11:50 AM	#7
Andy Stevens Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: London Posts: 155	Thanks for all the info. Its really very interesting. This weapon was sold on Ebay as being Indian, I thought from the picture it was some kind of African bush knife, now it turns out to be Chinese !! I,ve been looking through Oriental Arms sold gallery and they have a "19th c Chinese utillity / fighting knife " pictured that has a very similar scabbard to my example. There is also a "Chinese two handed heavy chopper" shown with a almost identical pommel ring and binding. Can anyone recommend a good book on Chinese weapons?

8th December 2004, 01:23 PM	#8
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Actually, Dennee, Ring hilts are common on Chinese daggers. The story is that you keep the blade in your boot, and to draw it, you reach down and hook it out by the ring. The ring on the bigger war swords could be used to hang it on a hook or in other similar ways. In other words, ring hilts are common on chinese sabers and knives. As I understand it, the genesis of the butterfly saber was that they were paired short sabers that were carried in the boots of monks who were out riding... For an introductory book on chinese weapons, you might try Yang Jwing-Ming's Ancient Chinese Weapons, A Martial Artist's Guide. Note that this is an introduction for stylists, so it contains line drawings rather than photos. Otherwise, you need to start looking at books about specific martial arts. As you've found out, there is a tremendous diversity of daos, and my experience is that the more you look, the more you find. Lots of martial arts masters came up with their own special weapons, and they can get pretty weird. Anyone ever seen a chicken foot dao, for instance? If there's a good book out there for collectors, hopefully someone will bring it up. I don't know of one.

9th December 2004, 02:00 AM	#9
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Is it my imagination, or is the groove closer to the back/false edge? Could this piece be reground from a more typical single edged blade? The hilt is definitely Chinese style. The scabbard appears to be Spanish colonial, as seen in Philippines, Mexico, etc.

9th December 2004, 12:22 PM	#10
Andy Stevens Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: London Posts: 155	Hello Tom Ive been looking at old threads from the old forum . Check out "Chinese sword for discussion" posted by RS Sword on 01.31.2001. Phillip Toms scabbard description matches my example well, even down to the suspension loop. Interesting. By the way the lines on the bladeare fairly central, just my poor exscuse for a camera!