ID sabre

KraVseR · 21st August 2015, 11:30 PM

Hello! Please, help me ID these sword. This is the warrior from Argentina, 1817 year.
Maybe spanish Light Cavalry Sabre 1803 pattern?

David R · 22nd August 2015, 12:00 AM

It looks like the classic "Blucher Sable" to me. The Prussians were making enough of them, or even War Surplus from Britain.

Fernando K · 22nd August 2015, 12:11 AM

Hello

I live in Argentina. The drawing is Eleodoro E. Marenco, a cartoonist of campers and millitares issues. Perhaps it is drawing not accurately reflect the modeloo, but English is the model 1796 or 1811 Prussian in their copies. European factories manufactured and exported large quantity to South American countries. Here it is known as bail handle and was the most simple and easy to produce model. Argentina not any own model tube until the end of the century. A body mounted safety of my city in 1950 still had this kind of sabers.

Afectosamente. Fernando K

Hotspur · 22nd August 2015, 03:22 AM

The toe/drag difference of the scabbards is significant in differentiating between the Prussian and English sabres. With the painting information confirmed, it would definitely be representative of a Prussian sword.

In photographs, the length of the quilion, bend at the base of the knuckle guard and the ears of the backstrap are also easy points to distiguish between origins of manufacture.

Cheers

GC

kronckew · 22nd August 2015, 09:18 AM

blucher sabre had a distinctly larger drag than the 1796 LC sabre. (see below)

trooper with 1796LC below for comparison. the argentine trooper's artist seems to put the widest bit of the blucher style drag on the wrong side tho.

KraVseR · 22nd August 2015, 10:48 AM

Thank you very much!
Can you tell me please other weapons that were used in the Andean army and in general in the War of Independence in South America?

fernando · 22nd August 2015, 12:56 PM

Are you an antique weapons collector, KraVser ?

.

KraVseR · 22nd August 2015, 01:47 PM

No, but I like the military history.

kronckew · 22nd August 2015, 03:04 PM

p.s. - the green uniform and bugle cap badge were generally used for rifles regiments, chasseurs, jaegers. interesting that an Argentinian mounted unit uses it...

is there a specific unit & story?

p.p.s. - i'd have ditched the red cap bit or 'accidentally' dyed it a darker colour, (or used a nice dark green plume of feathers

). snipers prefer a head shot, but no reason to make it easier for them.

KraVseR · 22nd August 2015, 10:11 PM

Yes, this is the Mounted Cazador (Chasseur) from the Army of the Andes.

KraVseR · 22nd August 2015, 10:40 PM

This is something other sabre?

kronckew · 22nd August 2015, 11:51 PM

officer? they normally buy their own gear & sword which may vary from the 'other ranks'.

KraVseR · 25th August 2015, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

officer? they normally buy their own gear & sword which may vary from the 'other ranks'.

No, this soldier from other regiment (infantry).

Fernando K · 25th August 2015, 01:25 PM

Hello

No. What is depicted in the drawing (Argentine army uniforms) Fernandez Rivas is the official (lieutenant) of the Hunters of the Andes (Army of General San Martin). Witness the cornet in the Morrion (distinctive hunters), apart from the description of the drawn

Affectionately. Fernando K

kronckew · 25th August 2015, 02:45 PM

his uniform is rather officer-ish

- i can't read the print at the bottom - too small.

in general, officers only have been allowed to wear gold hat bands,chin straps, sleeve braiding, trouser stripes, etc.

it lets the snipers know who to shoot.

and is why modern officers wear subdued rank insignia on their combat uniforms.

in the past it was generally agreed to, by the officers at least, that 'no undue attention to the officers was to be permitted'. more accurate long range rifles and dedicated snipers in the american civil war* and other countries kind of ended that tho. the boers especially were fond of potting british officers in their nice distinctive uniforms, prompting them & their men all to dress in khaki thereafter.

*- there was a famous union general who on may 9, 1864, went to the front line and remarked to his men, who had taken cover from the confederates, secure in the knowledge that they were mostly armed with their old smoothbore muskets, "stand up, men. they couldn't hit an elephant at this dist...." when he was shot between the eyes. he had a nice funeral, i hear. he, major general john sedgwick, was the highest ranking officer killed in the civil war.

fernando · 25th August 2015, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

... his uniform is rather officer-ish

- i can't read the print at the bottom - too small...

It says, as Fernando K well mentions: Batallon Cazadores de los Andes Sub-Teniente (Gala). Gala meaning dress uniform, i guess he wouldn't go fighting with all that gear...although Fernandez Rivas depicts him in a combat attitude.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

... in the past it was generally agreed to, by the officers at least, that 'no undue attention to the officers was to be permitted'... the boers especially were fond of potting british officers in their nice distinctive uniforms,...

So much later, rank stripes were not used at all on the field, uniforms being precisely the same for all ... even for the priest, if he happened to go along. It was beleived that, in ambushes, priority shooting, before defense was established, was aimed at rank, medics and radio operators, by that order; reason why these last two were ordered to follow in the back of the line. Also soldiers wearing sight glasses were a favored target, as this indicated they were more intelectual than others, so the loss being greater. This last one is difficult to digest but, that's what ran among troops.

kronckew · 25th August 2015, 07:44 PM

snipers would also, having disposed of any higher priority targets, from the back of the line towards the front. the men at the front were less likely to notice the missing until the point man turns to tell the man behind him something, and he ain't there.

p.s. - everybody wears pistols and flashy sunglasses now. and personal radios. so shoot the man carrying the notebook computer, he's the ossifer or the sergeant. doesn't work too well on taliban tho everyone there carries a mobile phone.

p.s. - i luckily had my action station down in the ship's engine room which made it even more difficult to shoot me. i did go along on a couple of beach landings, thankfully only opposed by bovines (cows/bulls), i did not need to shoot any of them.

fernando · 25th August 2015, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

... i luckily had my action station down in the ship's engine room which made it even more difficult to shoot me...

Lucky you

.

21st August 2015, 11:30 PM	#1
KraVseR Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Ukraine Posts: 128	ID sabre Hello! Please, help me ID these sword. This is the warrior from Argentina, 1817 year. Maybe spanish Light Cavalry Sabre 1803 pattern? Attached Images

22nd August 2015, 09:18 AM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	blucher sabre had a distinctly larger drag than the 1796 LC sabre. (see below) trooper with 1796LC below for comparison. the argentine trooper's artist seems to put the widest bit of the blucher style drag on the wrong side tho. Attached Images

22nd August 2015, 12:56 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Are you an antique weapons collector, KraVser ? . Last edited by fernando; 22nd August 2015 at 01:17 PM. Reason: spell

22nd August 2015, 03:04 PM	#9
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	p.s. - the green uniform and bugle cap badge were generally used for rifles regiments, chasseurs, jaegers. interesting that an Argentinian mounted unit uses it... is there a specific unit & story? p.p.s. - i'd have ditched the red cap bit or 'accidentally' dyed it a darker colour, (or used a nice dark green plume of feathers ). snipers prefer a head shot, but no reason to make it easier for them. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 22nd August 2015 at 03:34 PM.

22nd August 2015, 10:11 PM	#10
KraVseR Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Ukraine Posts: 128	Yes, this is the Mounted Cazador (Chasseur) from the Army of the Andes. Last edited by KraVseR; 22nd August 2015 at 10:41 PM.

22nd August 2015, 12:00 AM	#2
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	It looks like the classic "Blucher Sable" to me. The Prussians were making enough of them, or even War Surplus from Britain.

22nd August 2015, 12:11 AM	#3
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	Hello I live in Argentina. The drawing is Eleodoro E. Marenco, a cartoonist of campers and millitares issues. Perhaps it is drawing not accurately reflect the modeloo, but English is the model 1796 or 1811 Prussian in their copies. European factories manufactured and exported large quantity to South American countries. Here it is known as bail handle and was the most simple and easy to produce model. Argentina not any own model tube until the end of the century. A body mounted safety of my city in 1950 still had this kind of sabers. Afectosamente. Fernando K

22nd August 2015, 03:22 AM	#4
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 499	The toe/drag difference of the scabbards is significant in differentiating between the Prussian and English sabres. With the painting information confirmed, it would definitely be representative of a Prussian sword. In photographs, the length of the quilion, bend at the base of the knuckle guard and the ears of the backstrap are also easy points to distiguish between origins of manufacture. Cheers GC

22nd August 2015, 10:48 AM	#6
KraVseR Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Ukraine Posts: 128	Thank you very much! Can you tell me please other weapons that were used in the Andean army and in general in the War of Independence in South America?

22nd August 2015, 01:47 PM	#8
KraVseR Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Ukraine Posts: 128	No, but I like the military history.

22nd August 2015, 10:40 PM	#11
KraVseR Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Ukraine Posts: 128	This is something other sabre? Attached Images

22nd August 2015, 11:51 PM	#12
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	officer? they normally buy their own gear & sword which may vary from the 'other ranks'.

25th August 2015, 01:25 PM	#14
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	Hello No. What is depicted in the drawing (Argentine army uniforms) Fernandez Rivas is the official (lieutenant) of the Hunters of the Andes (Army of General San Martin). Witness the cornet in the Morrion (distinctive hunters), apart from the description of the drawn Affectionately. Fernando K

25th August 2015, 02:45 PM	#15
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	his uniform is rather officer-ish - i can't read the print at the bottom - too small. in general, officers only have been allowed to wear gold hat bands,chin straps, sleeve braiding, trouser stripes, etc. it lets the snipers know who to shoot. and is why modern officers wear subdued rank insignia on their combat uniforms. in the past it was generally agreed to, by the officers at least, that 'no undue attention to the officers was to be permitted'. more accurate long range rifles and dedicated snipers in the american civil war* and other countries kind of ended that tho. the boers especially were fond of potting british officers in their nice distinctive uniforms, prompting them & their men all to dress in khaki thereafter. - there was a famous union general who on may 9, 1864, went to the front line and remarked to his men, who had taken cover from the confederates, secure in the knowledge that they were mostly armed with their old smoothbore muskets, "stand up, men. they couldn't hit an elephant at this dist...." when he was shot between the eyes. he had a nice funeral, i hear. he, major general john sedgwick, was the highest ranking officer killed in the civil war. Last edited by kronckew; 25th August 2015 at 03:27 PM.*

25th August 2015, 07:44 PM	#17
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	snipers would also, having disposed of any higher priority targets, from the back of the line towards the front. the men at the front were less likely to notice the missing until the point man turns to tell the man behind him something, and he ain't there. p.s. - everybody wears pistols and flashy sunglasses now. and personal radios. so shoot the man carrying the notebook computer, he's the ossifer or the sergeant. doesn't work too well on taliban tho everyone there carries a mobile phone. p.s. - i luckily had my action station down in the ship's engine room which made it even more difficult to shoot me. i did go along on a couple of beach landings, thankfully only opposed by bovines (cows/bulls), i did not need to shoot any of them.