A friend's newly acquired kris for comment

Green · 26th April 2017, 04:53 PM

Here are a few pics of a kris that a friend just bought . As he is quite new to collecting kris/sundang he wanted to ask for my opinion but as I'm also not well versed on sundangs I suggested he post here for comments from some of you who have more experience in collecting this weapon type and he requested me to post on his behalf.

Would appreciate if you can give your view on it regarding probable age, where it is from and quality etc? The only thing I can say is that the part circled B looked like it is bent and probably the kris was dropped which cause this bent. Part circled A looked to me like a repair? and i've not seen this type of pommel before.

Battara · 26th April 2017, 06:14 PM

This is an honest late 19th - early 20th century.

It is from the Maguindanao tribe on the island of Mindanao in the Philippines.

The front is fine and original, the back end might be a little bent. What you are missing on this blade is what is called the baka-baka, or a clamp that is behind the front part of the base of the blade, matching the other silver clamp on the "tail end".

FYI - the pommel seems very worn in the pictures.

Ferguson · 26th April 2017, 09:04 PM

Battara,
Is it possible that the hilt is on backwards and the existing Baka-Baka is supposed to be on the other side? Since it's a unusual hilt style it may not look "off" to us. Don't some older Kris only have one? Just guesses on my part. Nice Kris.
Steve

Dayaktribe · 27th April 2017, 01:11 AM

Hello all, thanks to Green for posting this kris on behalf of me. Thanks as well to Batara and steve for the informative input on this kris. I acquired this kris from an antique shop in peninsula and he said the kris is from Magindanao tribe which exactly as Batara mentioned. It is a teluseko profile blade, half waving and half straight if i'm not mistaken. It did lost it front asang asang/ baca baca and the shadow of the lost clamp is still barely visible. I'm not sure whether the back side had bent it's tip or just normally like that. I think I have seen a sundang with similar presentation, will try to find the pic later. Furthermore I think this kris was once used by a fighter so the hilt used was very simple as it usually crack or destroyed with a heavy use. The hilt perhaps an old replacement but i've seen a similar hilt of sundang before where they used a local hard wood similar in hardness with bilian wood. Regarding to Steve's comment, I think the hilt is already in correct position as if we change the position it will be awkward and the graviti of slashing will feel incorrect. Lastly according to my Ilanun friend , in the old day their tribe used the scabbard made with bamboo as to contain the energy of the kris so it won't harm the surrounding people ( just a local believe at my home town- Sabah formerly known as North of Borneo).

Many thanks to all of my new friend here. Any information/ comment on this sundang is highly appreciated. This actually my 1st attempt to post reply in this wonderful forum.

Green · 27th April 2017, 01:28 AM

Battara;

Many thanks for the comment. I'm sure my friend would be v happy with that opinion.

Battara · 27th April 2017, 01:43 AM

Hi Steve,

I suppose anything is possible.

It is also possible that the hilt is much later.

Rafngard · 27th April 2017, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferguson

Battara,
Is it possible that the hilt is on backwards and the existing Baka-Baka is supposed to be on the other side? Since it's a unusual hilt style it may not look "off" to us. Don't some older Kris only have one? Just guesses on my part. Nice Kris.
Steve

The hilt does look a little funky. Especially in the last two photos, particularly where it connects to the blade. The lines look off, if that makes any sense. There's also a weird "bump" on the one side of the handle, near the pommel.

That said, GREAT looking blade.

Thanks,
Leif

Ian · 27th April 2017, 02:51 AM

Hi Green:

Battara has nailed this one for you. Maguindanao, late 19th-early 20th C. I have seen similar upturned gangya on other Maguindanao kris, and this may not be an area of damage on your friend's sword.

I'm attaching pics of two of my kris that come from Lumad tribes (non-Christian/non-Muslim) of southern and eastern Mindanao. I believe the first one is most likely from the Bagobo/Tagakaolu people (perhaps Craig can help identify more precisely the ikat designs on the fabrics wrapping the scabbards). The second one may be T'boli (again Craig could perhaps give us a clearer reading). Each of these kris blades bears characteristics of Maguindanao manufacture, and seem to be of similar age to your friend's example. Each one also has the same little upturned end of the gangya.

The scabbards are similar to Maguindanao wooden scabbards of the same period, although the ikat decorated cloth bindings look Lumad in design and execution. Moro pieces are rarely decorated in this manner.

Given the odd looking pommel on your friend's sword, I wonder if his too might have come from one of the non-Moro tribal groups of Mindanao. Just a thought and I would appreciate hearing what others think.

Ian.

-------------------Attachments--------------------

Bagobo kris
T'boli (?) kris

.

Marbel · 27th April 2017, 03:49 AM

Hello Ian,

Very nice pieces. Thanks as always for sharing.

The patterns and characteristics of the small ikat wrappings on the first scabbard are a bit hard to decipher, but the embroidered area on the handle would make me lean toward Bagobo. Nice intricate detail that on another piece might be attributed to the Blaan.

The ikat on the second piece is decidedly Tboli.

All the best,
Craig

Ian · 27th April 2017, 06:26 AM

Craig:

Thanks for the confirmation. I bought both of these from the same dealer in Ermita, Manila. He was confident the first one was Bagobo based on information from his source in Davao City. The second one he thought was T'boli based on having seen a similar one, but he thought that it might also have been B'laan. Seems as though he came to the same conclusions on these two.

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marbel

Hello Ian,

Very nice pieces. Thanks as always for sharing.

The patterns and characteristics of the small ikat wrappings on the first scabbard are a bit hard to decipher, but the embroidered area on the handle would make me lean toward Bagobo. Nice intricate detail that on another piece might be attributed to the Blaan.

The ikat on the second piece is decidedly Tboli.

All the best,
Craig

Dayaktribe · 27th April 2017, 11:02 AM

Hello all, I'm friend of Green. thanks to Green for posting this sundang on behalf of me and thanks all for all the informative comments on this sundang. I really appreciate that.

Btw Ian you have nice sundangs there, weird looking handle and very unique.

26th April 2017, 04:53 PM	#1
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 312	A friend's newly acquired kris for comment Here are a few pics of a kris that a friend just bought . As he is quite new to collecting kris/sundang he wanted to ask for my opinion but as I'm also not well versed on sundangs I suggested he post here for comments from some of you who have more experience in collecting this weapon type and he requested me to post on his behalf. Would appreciate if you can give your view on it regarding probable age, where it is from and quality etc? The only thing I can say is that the part circled B looked like it is bent and probably the kris was dropped which cause this bent. Part circled A looked to me like a repair? and i've not seen this type of pommel before. Attached Images

27th April 2017, 02:51 AM	#8
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,203	Hi Green: Battara has nailed this one for you. Maguindanao, late 19th-early 20th C. I have seen similar upturned gangya on other Maguindanao kris, and this may not be an area of damage on your friend's sword. I'm attaching pics of two of my kris that come from Lumad tribes (non-Christian/non-Muslim) of southern and eastern Mindanao. I believe the first one is most likely from the Bagobo/Tagakaolu people (perhaps Craig can help identify more precisely the ikat designs on the fabrics wrapping the scabbards). The second one may be T'boli (again Craig could perhaps give us a clearer reading). Each of these kris blades bears characteristics of Maguindanao manufacture, and seem to be of similar age to your friend's example. Each one also has the same little upturned end of the gangya. The scabbards are similar to Maguindanao wooden scabbards of the same period, although the ikat decorated cloth bindings look Lumad in design and execution. Moro pieces are rarely decorated in this manner. Given the odd looking pommel on your friend's sword, I wonder if his too might have come from one of the non-Moro tribal groups of Mindanao. Just a thought and I would appreciate hearing what others think. Ian. -------------------Attachments-------------------- Bagobo kris T'boli (?) kris . Attached Images Last edited by Ian; 27th April 2017 at 03:03 AM.

26th April 2017, 06:14 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	This is an honest late 19th - early 20th century. It is from the Maguindanao tribe on the island of Mindanao in the Philippines. The front is fine and original, the back end might be a little bent. What you are missing on this blade is what is called the baka-baka, or a clamp that is behind the front part of the base of the blade, matching the other silver clamp on the "tail end". FYI - the pommel seems very worn in the pictures.

26th April 2017, 09:04 PM	#3
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	Battara, Is it possible that the hilt is on backwards and the existing Baka-Baka is supposed to be on the other side? Since it's a unusual hilt style it may not look "off" to us. Don't some older Kris only have one? Just guesses on my part. Nice Kris. Steve

27th April 2017, 01:11 AM	#4
Dayaktribe Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 11	Hello all, thanks to Green for posting this kris on behalf of me. Thanks as well to Batara and steve for the informative input on this kris. I acquired this kris from an antique shop in peninsula and he said the kris is from Magindanao tribe which exactly as Batara mentioned. It is a teluseko profile blade, half waving and half straight if i'm not mistaken. It did lost it front asang asang/ baca baca and the shadow of the lost clamp is still barely visible. I'm not sure whether the back side had bent it's tip or just normally like that. I think I have seen a sundang with similar presentation, will try to find the pic later. Furthermore I think this kris was once used by a fighter so the hilt used was very simple as it usually crack or destroyed with a heavy use. The hilt perhaps an old replacement but i've seen a similar hilt of sundang before where they used a local hard wood similar in hardness with bilian wood. Regarding to Steve's comment, I think the hilt is already in correct position as if we change the position it will be awkward and the graviti of slashing will feel incorrect. Lastly according to my Ilanun friend , in the old day their tribe used the scabbard made with bamboo as to contain the energy of the kris so it won't harm the surrounding people ( just a local believe at my home town- Sabah formerly known as North of Borneo). Many thanks to all of my new friend here. Any information/ comment on this sundang is highly appreciated. This actually my 1st attempt to post reply in this wonderful forum.

27th April 2017, 01:28 AM	#5
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 312	Battara; Many thanks for the comment. I'm sure my friend would be v happy with that opinion.

27th April 2017, 01:43 AM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Hi Steve, I suppose anything is possible. It is also possible that the hilt is much later.

27th April 2017, 03:49 AM	#9
Marbel Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 66	Hello Ian, Very nice pieces. Thanks as always for sharing. The patterns and characteristics of the small ikat wrappings on the first scabbard are a bit hard to decipher, but the embroidered area on the handle would make me lean toward Bagobo. Nice intricate detail that on another piece might be attributed to the Blaan. The ikat on the second piece is decidedly Tboli. All the best, Craig

27th April 2017, 11:02 AM	#11
Dayaktribe Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 11	Hello all, I'm friend of Green. thanks to Green for posting this sundang on behalf of me and thanks all for all the informative comments on this sundang. I really appreciate that. Btw Ian you have nice sundangs there, weird looking handle and very unique.