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#1 |
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Denmark
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Hi folks
I was wandering round my local (Danish) weapons fair a couple of weeks ago looking very hard for interesting ethnographic swords from India or Indonesia, but finding only very many local European swords, then my eye fell on a small stand selling keris. I had promised myself that I would not start on these but with nothing else to buy and cash from the sale of some WWI & WWII swords burning a hole in my pocket I got tempted....so now I guess I'm a fledgling keris collector, and I'm hoping I did not buy too much junk. This is the first piece I picked up. I was told that it was from northern Sumatra, about 200 years old, and probably belonging to an important man due to the silver ornamentation. Happily I was sensible enough to also buy a book on keris although I can already see that one book is not going to be enough. This is what I think I know, and I'd welcome corrections and further information. Hilt: ivory, pangulu hilt Mendak: brass Region: Sulawesi, Buginese Pamor: kulit semangka ??? Buntut: Silver I think that I was told it was from Aceh because there is a very similar keris in Fig 114 of Den Indonesiske Kris, by Karsten Sejr Jensen, but all the other keris of this form I have been able to find pictures of are Buginese and I think I understand from the text that Aceh keris are mostly imported from other areas since the sewar and rencong are the traditional weapons of that region. But I will happily stand to be corrected. I can see very strong similarities between the buntut in fig. 114 and the one on my own. The last picture shows the other two keris that tempted me that day - but I think I'll start separate threads for them later when I've done a little more research. I have found these really fascinating and I can already feel that I'm hooked on keris as well as the larger weapons from that region - no hope for salvation I'm afraid. Chris Last edited by Mefidk; 9th May 2009 at 10:20 PM. Reason: needed to add pictures |
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#2 |
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
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Hello Chris,
very nice Bugis keris you bought. The hilt is from sea ivory and not from elephant. My guess is that it is a pure Bugis keris, I don't see that it is maybe from Aceh, but difficult to say sometimes. You can find Bugis keris with this form also at Sumatra and Sumbawa. The other keris with naga at the blade is recent and from cheap quality. The third blade seems to be old and good. It is a iras blade where the ganja is not separate. sajen Last edited by Sajen; 9th May 2009 at 11:28 PM. |
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#3 |
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Third keris appears to be ganja iras .
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#4 |
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I think you chose very well for your first purchase. The bugis blades covered a wide area so it can be very hard to say exactly where they came from. The third one also looks an interesting older blade but for me this hilt does not sit well with the blade.
drd |
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#5 | |
Keris forum moderator
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Location: Nova Scotia
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![]() Quote:
![]() Pretty nice buy for a first keris (the bugis). Looks more Sulawesi to me, but i also get a bit confused when it comes to the subtleties of various Bugis origins. The Pendokok (what you called the mendak which is really a Javanese term for a slightly different piece that fits in the same position) doesn't look like it fits quite right, but the rest is pretty nice. The third keris looks like it is a kebo dhapur, meaning the the gandik is longer than on other keris. Such keris are often said to be good for those involved in agriculture. I would agree that the hilt doesn't seem a good fit (stylistically), though it is an interesting one. Was there a sheath for this one? Oh, and welcome to the forum. ![]() |
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#6 | |
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I sorry to hear that you're got this infection. Welcome to the club. ![]() Congratulations on owning these pieces. A good start, unique pieces in their own way. The first is a nice Bugis piece. The hilt is marine ivory. Probably not from Sulawesi but from other bugis-influenced regions such as Sumatra or Sumbawa, based on a few indicators. The second blade seems to be a crude Pattani naga form, Malay Peninsular.. can we have close-up pics of the gandik area of the blade (where the serpent's head is), and close-up of the hilt, from various angles, the front and side. Nice Coteng or Tajong form. The third is a ganja iras blade form with pamor adeg. Hilt is probably made from bone, based on the porous inner carved area. The hilt does not sit well, probably due to a missing mendak. ![]() |
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#7 |
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Thank you very much for the information. I'm glad the swords were not swapped for junk
![]() The kingfisher hilt was the reason I bought the second piece. I was told later by another collector that the fellow I bought it from once had a large collection of these but after retirement he has sold them all and I got the last one. No sheath I'm afraid. I've attached a few more pictures of this one. The third piece I was told was from Bali and about 300 years old (the bone hilt certainly gives the impression of some serious age). As far as I can find out the figure is a representation of agressive Shiva Bhairava sitting in Rajalilisana position. Is it possible to determine whether the hilt and blade have the same origins, and if so figure out what type of sheath and mendak I would need to find to complete the piece? I can see some new ones for sale on the web so I guess they can also make replacement parts. |
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#8 | |
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![]() Last edited by Alam Shah; 10th May 2009 at 11:25 AM. |
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#9 |
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The third piece is not Bali. The hilt is from North Java, Cirebon imho. The blade is gonjo iras indeed.
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#10 |
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Hi Chris,
Can we have a few pics of the 3rd hilt, from the front and from the other side.. and a full pic of the blade, please. ![]() |
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#11 |
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Hello Chris,
in my first look I haven't seen the very nice and old Tajong hilt because I don't skroll the picture to the right. sajen |
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#12 |
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Hi Alam Shah
here are a few more pictures of the third piece for you. Thanks for the Tajong link. Looking at this suggests that mine is quite old, which I had not expected ![]() Chris |
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#13 |
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A Kebo with ganja iras; nice blade . IMHO
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#14 |
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Silence is deafening .
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#15 |
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Rick - I was hoping that if I waited long enough someone might clue me in to what a kebo is, but I guess I just have to advertise my ignorance
![]() I'm beginning to feel the need to buy my second keris book already - any suggestions to rectify ignorance problems such as the above? ![]() |
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#16 |
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I'm sorry, I was referring to the dapur of this blade; I should have said kebo lajer and completed the name ..
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#17 | |
Keris forum moderator
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http://kerisattosanaji.com/kerisdiagram.html Hope that helps you. ![]() BTW, you will probably need a great many books about keris and Indonesian cultures if you want to scratch the many layers of understanding that make up the inscrutable onion that is the keris. If you search this forum you will probably find a good list or two on where to get started. ![]() |
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#18 |
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Thanks for the explanation guys - its a great help.
Does this information help narrow down the origin and/or age. Henk suggested Cirebon. The hilt is bone and is of Hindu design, so does that indicate a pre-muslim date? |
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#19 |
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I think that the hilt was a more recent marriage with this blade. Usually not a good idea to judge the origin of the blade from the dress. I would say it is probably a Javanese blade, though i doubt it was pre-Islamic. I think you would need to post a lot more close-ups of details before anyone could nail it down to a specific part of Jawa like Cirebon. Even then it's beyond my skill set, though others here seem much more knowledgeable on such things. The pesi (tang) still looks very intact. While this blade certainly has some age i am not sure it extends much past the 19th century.
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#20 |
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Thanks David, I can see the sense in that.
So taking the hilt separately I assume if it is from Java and if I have my history of islamic influence correct then it is probably suggests a 16C date for the hilt. Whereas if it came from Bali then it could be much later. Is it possible to determine whether this is the case from pictures? I'd imagine that styles of carving at least would be pretty regional, and perhaps the dates as in the case of the tajong. Or are these assumptions just too simplistic ![]() What I'm also wondering is whether it is normal for a hilt to survive that long and to be attached to a newer blade. I would have imagined that the older examples came with older blades as trophies/trade items from long ago, and that a keris hilt in use was more likely to be damaged and replaced than the blade with all the blade's symbolic importance; hence old blade new hilt would be more normal. However, I suppose what you are saying is that it is most likely that both were collected separately and joined by an earlier collector. |
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#21 |
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Doubtful that the hilt is from 16C , but one never knows ..
![]() This hilt seems almost a fusion of Balinese and N.Jawa styles; there seems to be no tumpal throne as I know it . The decorative motifs seem N. Coast . The surface the figure is sitting on is quite different also. What does it represent ? The Sea, the Firmament ? ![]() ![]() |
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