Another Unique Malay Sundang

[CharlesS]

I picked up this example in Baltimore last year and just had a scabbard made for it by a forumite. Note the unique elongated "stirrup", the good blade chieselling and the slightly down curved blade. The point is also more gradually tapered. Note also the worn carving on the pommel that is a unique shape in its own right.

Any symbolic significance to the brass inlays that anyone can think of??

Origin? The peninsula?....Borneo??

[kai]

Thanks for the pics, Charles!

Looks like a Malay sundang to me (i. e. peninsular). AFAIK, the blade is not from Mindanao nor Sulu. The pommel as well as the silverwork have a Malay feel to them, too.

Regards,
Kai

[Battara]

Yup I'm with Kai - definitely Malay all the way.

As far as the brass dot inlay are concerned, this came up in another thread stating that the brass may be used to word off evil spirits and influences for the Philippines and I would extend this as a possibility for the rest of the Malay/Indonesian/Philippine world as well.

[CharlesS]

Thanks guys.

Battara, what is the origin of that "evil spirits" idea?? I have never heard anything like it, but it's interesting.

[Battara]

Try this thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=brass+dots

The research is not just for dots but for brass/bronze period.

There is also this thread too:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=brass+dots

[VVV]

Another nice catch!!!
Seems like you really have been bitten by the Peninsular Sundang bug based
on all the great ones you have posted here the last years.

Michael

[kai]

Hello Charles,

Any symbolic significance to the brass inlays that anyone can think of??

This blade doesn't look antique to me - maybe more like before WW2? While the dots may still have had some meaning in Malay culture, I wouldn't discount the possibility that they were just added because they are seen in some Moro kris, too...

Regards,
Kai

[CharlesS]

Kai,

I am just curious; what about this blade does not look "antique"? Were it a Moro blade I think it would be much easier to "date", but I am not as familiar with Malay blades.

Could you please post some comparative examples for contrast and study?

[mross]

Looks cool very unique, I like it.

[Spunjer]

Nice one, my friend! Does it have a twisty core?

[Gustav]

The engravings on hilt look like a chinese work, compare it to pendok on second keris here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=chinese+keris

Is there a possibility, such (triangular) configuration of fullers on base of blade is more sumatran then malay? Have seen such on two sumatran dreesed keris blades.

[CharlesS]

Sorry, no twistcore blade Spunjer!

[Battara]

Hate to say but the chasing work on the hilt is common okir style to the region. Maybe a Chinese silversmith made it, maybe not.

[Gustav]

Jose, I don't have the smallest part of your knowledge about okir ornamentics, yet if it more likely is a Peninsular work, I doubt we can call it okir.

The flowers on it, - this is the point of question - they look close to way peonies are depicted (comparing to other examples of design with this flower from Peninsula and Sumatra in silverwork and woodcarving), and peonies are not traditional Malay or Sumtran in design. As I understand, they are mark of strong chinese influence.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Jose, I don't have the smallest part of your knowledge about okir ornamentics, yet if it more likely is a Peninsular work, I doubt we can call it okir.

The flowers on it, - this is the point of question - they look close to way peonies are depicted (comparing to other examples of design with this flower from Peninsula and Sumatra in silverwork and woodcarving), and peonies are not traditional Malay or Sumtran in design. As I understand, they are mark of strong chinese influence.

Hello Gustav,

this is what I have read and learned as well, the peonie flower is a chinese motif so far I know.
Look for example this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13374

Regards,

Detlef

[Battara]

So what you both are saying is that anytime we see this particular flower motif it is of Chinese origin................interesting................

[Gustav]

As I said, it is the question if peonie is peonie is peonie, yet otherwise when we see it on Peninsula or Sumatra, this surely is chinese influenced and most probably chinese work.

[Sajen]

Hi Jose,

yes, agree with Gustav.

Regards,

Detlef

[DAHenkel]

While this is clearly Malay I have a feeling it is not Peninsular but could be Riau or Bornean Malay. I have some pictures floating around somewhere but I can't find any of them at the moment. Will dig a bit deeper when I have time...

[CharlesS]

Would love to see some pics of them as worn...Thanks DAHenkel

[Gustav]

There is one slightly similar in Museum Negara Melaka.

Your specimen has lost some material abowe the greneng (or what is left of it). Is the clamp original or a restoration? Almost all with this kind of fullers I have seen are coming (now?) without clamp.

[kai]

Hello Charles,

Sorry for the late reply!

I am just curious; what about this blade does not look "antique"? Were it a Moro blade I think it would be much easier to "date", but I am not as familiar with Malay blades.

If this were a Moro blade, the strongly angular separation line would most likely place it in the 1920-1930 period. Thus, it seems unlikely to me that (despite their obvious creativity) any Malay bladesmith made this earlier.

Your blade looks nice (with workmanship of better quality than most Moro kris of that period) but lacks the crispness and flow I'd expect from a 19th century kris (of good quality); some details like the greneng and the jalen as well as the pretty homogenous metal and the stained wood pommel seem to support a 1920-1940 period for its origin. Wait a decade or two and I won't quibble with it being antique anymore...

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Dave,

While this is clearly Malay I have a feeling it is not Peninsular but could be Riau or Bornean Malay. I have some pictures floating around somewhere but I can't find any of them at the moment. Will dig a bit deeper when I have time...

Yes, Riau sounds good to me, too - I'd consider the whole straits area (western/southern peninsula, northeastern coastal Sumatra, and the whole Riau archipelago) as predominantly of Malay culture.

The few antique keris sundang from Brunei I've seen had blades that looked like typical Sulu blades (considering the historical ties between the 2 sultanates, this is not really surprising). Have you pics of any examples from other Malay settlements on Borneo?

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Gustav,

Thanks for the pics!

There is one slightly similar in Museum Negara Melaka.

Would certainly be nice to see the full blade. OTOH, the base features are very different from Charles example - I'm not sure we can argue a close origin based on only the fullers.

Your specimen has lost some material abowe the greneng (or what is left of it).

I'd guess that the greneng of Charles' piece are original (only slightly worn).

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Gustav,

Is there a possibility, such (triangular) configuration of fullers on base of blade is more sumatran then malay? Have seen such on two sumatran dreesed keris blades.

Which keris are you thinking of? Could you please post pics? TIA!

Regards,
Kai

[Gustav]

Hello Kai,

unfortunately I don't have any pictures of these Keris. Both have had similar triangular fullers at the base, combined with elongated srawejan/kruwingan, and both Sumatran (Riau) sheaths.

You are of course wright about the Sundang I posted, the similarity is only very superficial, just this glimpse of disappeared sogokan. Here a pic of another Sundang, which is probably similar to the one in Museum.

As I wrote, I suppose, the sundang of Charles has lost some material abowe the Greneng; the space between fuller and edge should be equally broad as on the Kembang Kacang side. I think, there is some minimal markings of reshaping also abowe the (actually much to small and Moro looking) Kembang Kacang, and this space (Gusen) could originally be broader also on this side.

Sorry for the inappropriate Javanese terminology to describe the features!

I suppose also, there were some "extern" Greneng beyond the inserted dots, which is almost completely gone. As ever, the most loss of material is at the Wadidang/Greneng area. Becouse of this very common reshaping I thought, this Sundang could be slightly older (end of 19. cent.), yet your observation about angular Tungkakan is very good. I really don't know.

[kai]

Hello Gustav,

Here a pic of another Sundang, which is probably similar to the one in Museum.

That's a different type of fullering; also the features at the base of the blade differ. It's a good comparision though and shows the craftmanship I'd expect from a quality blade from the 19th c.

As I wrote, I suppose, the sundang of Charles has lost some material abowe the Greneng; the space between fuller and edge should be equally broad as on the Kembang Kacang side.

I see what you mean but from the overall proportions I'd guess that the flow of lines was just less well controlled when this blade got carved.

I think, there is some minimal markings of reshaping also abowe the (actually much to small and Moro looking) Kembang Kacang, and this space (Gusen) could originally be broader also on this side.

Not sure this really is the result of reshaping. Charles, can we get a close-up of the base features from the other side?

I suppose also, there were some "extern" Greneng beyond the inserted dots, which is almost completely gone. As ever, the most loss of material is at the Wadidang/Greneng area. Becouse of this very common reshaping I thought, this Sundang could be slightly older (end of 19. cent.),

Larger greneng would have botched up the proportions even more - I don't think this piece ever had such features.

BTW, it's common to see some broken off greneng, etc. but a completely recarved greneng area seems to be quite rare with Moro kris (as well as Malay keris sundang) - they generally are much stronger than with the keris of usual size.

Regards,
Kai

[Gustav]

[QUOTE=kai]
.
"Not sure this really is the result of reshaping. Charles, can we get a close-up of the base features from the other side?"

This line abowe Kembang Kacang is very suspicious to me, as are the whole proportions. Of course I see, this Sundang probably was never a very good work.

Is there a possibility, the whole Kembang Kacang was bigger, also with some dots? Actually the whole area looks disturbed to me. Just a speculation.

"BTW, it's common to see some broken off greneng, etc. but a completely recarved greneng area seems to be quite rare with Moro kris (as well as Malay keris sundang) - they generally are much stronger than with the keris of usual size."

The much to small incisions (size and frequency) abowe the dots look like secundary made or remains to me: I can not imagine, this is original state.

If you have a complete gusen on Greneng side (and here reshaping is clearly visible), you have space for external Greneng.