Kubur Questions

[Rick]

Can any one of our newer firearms loving members tell me something about this pistol .
I haven't seen a lot of these guns; but I have yet to see another barrel like the one shown .

Any help is much appreciated; it's an old family piece .

[Kubur]

Hi!
I guess that I'm amongst the new friends.
I saw your previous post.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...figures+barrel
Ok I will tell you all what I know about this kind of gun.
I missed few years ago a pair of full brass kubur, with the barrels and the locks completly decorated like yours.
They were so strange that i didn't buy them...what a mistake!
I have seen this kind of pistols only in the Balkans, but It's impossible for me to tell you if they were Greeks, Bosnians or Albanians. If you observe the frizzen, the long vertical groves are caracteristic from the "Muslim" pistols from the Balkans, the (Christian-orthodox) Greeks prefered the plain frizzen without groves. Some of these pistols reappeared in North Africa, like the pair that I told you, brought from Algeria. As you see, I don't have any answer but some tracks...
Best,
Kubur

[Kubur]

Happy you
In my archives, I have on similar to those that I described.

[Rick]

Happy me indeed !
I'm very glad at least one other person here has seen such a barrel .
Thank you very much Kubur !

I was hoping to gather a little more information since we have many more antique firearms enthusiasts than when I first posted this pistol .

Does anyone recognize the stamp under the barrel ?
And this barrel having no band/s would have been seated in the stock with some sort of resin/tar ?

[Norman McCormick]

Originally Posted by Rick

Does anyone recognize the stamp under the barrel ?

Hi,
One of the marks looks suspiciously like the British Govt. broad arrow acceptance stamp though how this could be as surely the decor must have been cast at the time of manufacture. Perhaps a better image of that mark may be a help. On the other hand I have a Greek kariofili rifle whose barrel has markings for the Mutzig castle armoury in Alsace that I'm pretty sure didn't leave the factory with the incised decoration on the top. I'm of the opinion that the barrel was captured/looted/reused and decorated thus as an 'aftermarket custom job'.
Regards,
Norman.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
This is a section of one of the guns Kubur posted, it does look like stock removal has been used to create the decoration.
Regards,
Norman.

[Rick]

Thank you Norman .
I think you're right when you figure that barrel was done after-the-fact; this one looks the same under the rust; it took a lot of work; I wonder when and where .
Here are some better pictures of the mark struck in the barrel .

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Rick,
There looks to be the numeral 4 inside the broadarrow, if it is it may be an inspectors stamp. The attached photo is of an P1821 L.C. troopers sword of mine, probably early 1830's, with an inspectors mark.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. I can't remember when the broadarrow was introduced by the British War Office.

[Norman McCormick]

'28th July 1806. The Board having been pleased to direct that in future all descriptions of Ordnance Stores should be marked with the broad arrow as soon as they shall have been received as fit for His Majesty's Service; all Storekeepers and Deputy Storekeepers and others are desired to cause this order to be accordingly attended to, in the Department under their direction, reporting to the Board in all cases when articles are received to which this mark cannot be applied’


Hi Rick,
It was in use before this time but this order defined its use to this day.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Oliver Pinchot]

Rick, I've seen several of these with Serbian inscriptions.

[Rick]

No thoughts on the Maker's stamping ?

Norman, I'm not sure about the figure being a 4; it is far from clear and very light; in fact it looks more like a 4 in the picture than under magnification by eye .

Serbian; thanks Oliver .

The only other weapon passed down from him was one of those wedding nimchas from N. Africa .

[Multumesc]

Beautiful gun !!!

[Kubur]

Hi Rick,
You are super lucky, I found all the informations about your gun.
Will post them this week end!
Kubur

[Rick]

Oboy !!
Thank you in advance .

[Kubur]

Ok, it's just an abstract of what I read.
Ulcinj was a town to the South of Montenegro and an Albanian centre of pistols production. The town had trade links with Egypt and Tunisia.
Albanesi traders and merceneries worked notably with egypt, Tunisa and Algeria
and participated to the diffusion of Balkans arms in the Ottoman empire.
Ulcinj was also an haven for corsairs from North Africa.
They decorated their gun barrels with animal and humans figures, they even engraved their Italians gun locks from Brescia with figures.
This decoration was made to please the taste of North Africans and mixed populations of Albanians living in Africa.
Reference: Elgood, Arms of Greece, mainly p. 39-40
I think this information is useful not only for your gun, but also to understand the spread of Ottoman arms in North Africa...

[Rick]

Marvelous, and I thank you Kubur .
Since the only other arm that came down to us from him was a 'Wedding Nimcha' ; I would think that this places it as being acquired in Algeria or Morocco .
Now I'll have to get the courage to remove the lock and look for marks .

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by Rick

Marvelous, and I thank you Kubur .
Since the only other arm that came down to us from him was a 'Wedding Nimcha' ; I would think that this places it as being acquired in Algeria or Morocco .
Now I'll have to get the courage to remove the lock and look for marks .

Hi Rick.
What a beautiful - and interesting pistol. At first glance, the overall proportions of the gun look just like a typical Ottoman/Balkan made kubur pistol. The lock style, butt cap, trigger guard, etc. But Kubur, above, is probably correct. The last time I saw the facial impression on the breech of a barrel was on a Greek/Rasak long gun. The Greeks were also fond of making their triggers in the form of humans. Most of the relief chiseling on the barrels that I've seen were on Ottomah/Balkan guns, but done in a more generic matter such as the barrel on the Ottoman Knee Pistol below.
If you have a chance, would you run a piece of wire or something down the ramrod channel and see if the hole goes all the way back towards the breech? Or does the wire travel only a couple inches past the lowere ramrod thimble? It would be interesting to know since it looks like it was made for a full length ramrod vs a false ramrod. Thanks.
Rick.

[Rick]

Thank you for the information Rick .
Just checked the ramrod depth; it's false .
Can you make anything out of the stamp under the barrel ?
Were these barrels sourced from the area of manufacture; or imported and embellished ?
Another question; this pistol has never had a barrel band; what was the barrel seated in to keep it in the stock ?

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by Rick

Thank you for the information Rick .
Just checked the ramrod depth; it's false .
Can you make anything out of the stamp under the barrel ?
Were these barrels sourced from the area of manufacture; or imported and embellished ?
Another question; this pistol has never had a barrel band; what was the barrel seated in to keep it in the stock ?

Hi Rick. Finally back to this Thread.
1) OK. False ramrod. More evidence of being locally made/assembled. The lock also looks locally made.
2) Unfortunately, "markings" are not one of my strong suites. But it does look like the numeral 4 from the photos, and does look like a stamp. But the proposed broad arrow doesn't appear to be a stamp (?). Looks more like a cut or engraving. The same with the two straight marks just ahead of the arrow. I've never seen one of these pistols with an English proof. Unless Afghan made. Seen Belgium, Italian, and even one German marked barrel, and of course locally made barrels. But not English. Or at least any proofs.
The other stamp, that looks locally done, I have no idea.
3) The barrels, locks, and some hardware were both locally made and imported. There were even complete guns, European made, and decorated for local tastes, and exported for re-sale. That's also why these pistols are often mis-identified as Italian, Dutch, or something else. So the combination/mix of parts all over the map you might say. LOL
4) Most of these pistols had one or more barrel bands. Your's may have had a single barrel band at the muzzle end with a groove on the lower part to accomodate the rod. But check the bottom of the barrel for any evidence that there may have been one or two underlugs that would have been soldered to the barrel, or a small square, shallow cut in the barrel to accomodate one or more pins. In other words, the barrel may have originally been pin fastend, but the underlugs that held the pins are now gone. Is there one or more small holes in the stock where a barrel pin(s) might have once been?
Rick.

[Rick]

Hi Rick,
Thanks for your further comments on this piece .
I can find no evidence of remains of any kind of pin under the barrel or where it lies (smooth with some old rust) but I do see some faint marks on the stock about an inch and a half in from the business end, though they look a bit like impressions made by wire possibly . That being said there is no change in the patina of the wood; this pistol has been in my family's possession for probably 125 years so if it (the barrel band) was lost earlier that could account, I guess for the uniformity of the patina .

I want to thank you all for your help with this pistol .

Rick

[rickystl]

Hi Rick.
Brass or Silver wire was another common method of securing the barrel. Probably came off a long time ago.
Yes, it looks like you were able to secure a pretty close ID for your pistol. GREAT! It was a fun Thread.
Rick.

[GIO]

The counter-plate screws are for sure new

[Kubur]

Stupid I'm, I didn't look at the trigger and trigger guard, from souvenir pistols... Added later? The lock and barrel are good though.