Blade cross cut shape description

[celtan]

Hi Guys,

How would you describe this crosscut?

It has a high ridge on one side, with hollowed facets, and a "negative" valley on the other.

I have always used the term "foliate", since it seems akin to a leaf, but I wonder if there's a more precise denomination.

Best

M

[fearn]

Ummm, old epee blade?

Best,

F

[fernando]

Hi Manolete,

Your pictures are getting finer

I think i see these being called "thee sided" or "triangular section" blades in a determined reknown British catalogue, but i can't check whether their backs are flat or concave .

But i'd say we call it here "lamina de tres quinas e mesas concavas".
... Pick up your notions of galego

I guess in French would be called "lame à deux pans creux".

[celtan]

You are bad...

Keep missbehavin' & Santa is going to also leave you only coal.

: )

Regards

M

Originally Posted by fearn

Ummm, old epee blade?

Best,

F

[celtan]

You are surely jesting, my good sir.

Oh, you indeed were?

Well Senhor, what can you expect from small croppings of crappy large old pictures?

: P

Nah, the problem wit the denomination you suggest is that it is not distinctive enough, since it may well be applied also to estoc pyramidal crosscut blades ( like most socket bayonets).

The "Three corners and concave tables" is much better, yet too lengthy to be practical. Yet both it and the French "blade with two hollow sides" do not address the counterpart face with the valley/central depression. (Not really a groove).

This type of blade is very attractive, delicate, even elegant. Circa early to Mid17th C. It doths remind me of a leaf and it's stem. Seems to be a link between former broad blades and colichemarde pyramidal hollow blades.

Surely, there must be many more around with this typology.

What do you say, mes sieurs?

Bestest Regards

Manolo

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Manolete,

Your pictures are getting finer

I think i see these being called "thee sided" or "triangular section" blades in a determined reknown British catalogue, but i can't check whether their backs are flat or concave .

But i'd say we call it here "lamina de tres quinas e mesas concavas".
... Pick up your notions of galego

I guess in French would be called "lame à deux pans creux".

[celtan]

Better photos recently taken. Note that the reverse face is actually a valley made by the two mesas/tables/sides of the anverse. Not the typical third face of a pyramidal blade. The effect is very elegant, almost dainty, yet the 3 cm wide blade (at ricasso) is very robust.

[fernando]

I would say i have already seen this type of cross section, in a much smaller scale; in fact the short blade of a sword cane i had.
If we were talking graphics, this would be a circumflex accent cross section
Go figure what would they call this profile sword wise .

[Jim McDougall]

In the 18th century these smallsword type blades were called 'hollow blades'.
(Aylward, 1945, p. 38)

[celtan]

Hi Guys,

Jim, I mean no disrespect, just trying to learn. But, weren't "hollow" blades _any_ blade with concave faces/mesas such as a triangular cross-cut (cc) estoc blade..?

Many swedish palasch blades were of hollow diamond cc.

Best

M

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

In the 18th century these smallsword type blades were called 'hollow blades'.
(Aylward, 1945, p. 38)

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks for answering Manolo. I'm with you, trying to learn, which is why I was going through the references at hand to see if I could answer your question.

Aylward ("The Smallsword in England", 1945, p.38) notes in a paragraph on 'triple edge blades'.....
"...it is customary to refer to the typical blades of the 18th century as 'triangular', but the term is not quite as accurate as might be wished. In section, the broader side of these blades shows a slightly curved base line from the center of which rises a median spine joined to the extremities of the base line by arcs; in consequence we have a blade which is, in fact, a triple edged one, and the design has come so near to perfection as far as a purely thrusting weapon is concerned that even army bayonets were made in this manner up to a comparitively recent period."

On the next page he notes that these triple edged blades were called 'hollow' blades by those who made them.

On p.36, Aylward notes that an earlier blade, though not intended for smallswords may be the initial development for the 'hollow' blade, forged with a central spine on either side, the four flutes then producing a section resembling a cross with hollowed arms and four edges.

It seems the 'hollow' term may have been misapplied as well as misunderstood with the 17th century sword factories at Hounslow, later Shotley Bridge with the mysterious "Hollow Sword Blade Company" venture , which seems to have been more 'business' than actual production. Later the Shotley Bridge factory claimed to specialize in these 'hollow blades', but no smallswords can definitely be attributed to them as far as is known (p.33).

What I think often adds to confusion is that military blades of latter 18th century onward typically used the hollow ground style where the faces of the blade were ground to form fullers to lighten and strengthen blade.

It would seem the 'hollow' term far exceeded the smallsword blades, and became entirely misperceived in the early days, I believe some perceptions even included the idea that blades were actually hollow with notions of them being filled with mercury and other strange notions.

The actual three equally positioned edges which in cross looks like a three point star is compared to the trialamellum by Burton (p.135), but is of course not comparable to this section.

Im not sure what geometric term would be applicable to these blades of this type section, but wanted to note what they seem to have been called at the time, at least colloquially and probably connected in some degree to these other cases.

I must admit I'm trying to understand these extracts from Aylward as well, so please forgive the drawn out text (for me what else is new . Perhaps they might give us better perspective at least, but the fact remains the term 'hollow' may not have been used at all for these military version blades.
I think mostly I was working toward understanding the earlier smallsword blades, and possible associations to this one.

All the best,
Jim

[Gavin Nugent]

My understanding is they are referred to as Trefoil blades which was the attribution to the three point cross section and the profile was call triangular blades due to their shape.

Gav

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent input Gav! I had forgotten the 'trefoil' term, which does seem applicable if we must adopt a term for these blades. The 'hollow' term seems more a descriptive term to the concave section of the blade face in varying applications in cross section.

All the best,
Jim

[celtan]

Hi Guys,

Once again, trefoil literally means "three edges" ( tres filos) , and applies to _any_ triangular crosscut blade. I know, I feel, I'm sure that there must be an _specific_ term that applies to the cross-cut I'm presenting. SWord making is (one of ) the oldest proffession (s)!

: )

So far, the only one that I believe fulfills the requirement is "foliate" (leaf-like), but I haven't seen it being used. I'm looking for a term that is unique to this shape, better suited and historically based. I haven't seen other blades with this crosscut, although some old pictures from Kissak at the Stockholm Military Museum seem to be of a similar blade.

Best regards.

M

[fernando]

Funny; i find 'foliate' ugly ... and clumsy .
You're right, there must be something more technical ... and well put.

[celtan]

C'mon Nando,

You're just envious that I coined that term before you did...

Its waxing poetic'. Simple, concise , beautifully apropos, a delight to utter. Heck, it's even eco-friendly!

Just think of the alternative "lamina de tres quinas e mesas concavas"...


Egad!



Take care

Manolo

Originally Posted by fernando

Funny; i find 'foliate' ugly ... and clumsy .
You're right, there must be something more technical ... and well put.

[fearn]

You know, I was just looking up the terms for leaves, to see if there was something mellifluous that might work here. For leaves, the term is "keeled" as if the leaf blade were keeled like a boat.

You could call it a keeled triangular blade. That's slightly better than single fullered triangular, which was my other idea. I still like epee blade, though.

Best,

F

[celtan]

You're keeling me here!

( Actually, a rather good suggestion. )

Best


M

Originally Posted by fearn

You know, I was just looking up the terms for leaves, to see if there was something mellifluous that might work here. For leaves, the term is "keeled" as if the leaf blade were keeled like a boat.

You could call it a keeled triangular blade. That's slightly better than single fullered triangular, which was my other idea. I still like epee blade, though.

Best,

F

[Hotspur]

Regarding the term "hollow" that Jim mentions, I had come across a reference to that while doing some research of something else. The following, a post over tp myArmoury but I may have mentioned my finds elsewhere.

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=5468

While doing yet more work with German cutlers moving to England, what Howy (Albion swords) mentions makes a good bit of sense and maybe the term some may be looking for in better (universally?) describing the cross-section can be found in looking at German/Prussian cutlery terminology.

The text of those findings pasted here

From 1704

Sword-blade Company, Bill.
The Earl of Stamford reported from the Lords Committees, the Bill, intituled, "An Act to discharge the Governor and Company for making hollow Sword Blades in England, of the Sum of Eighteen Thousand Eight Hundred Sixty-four Pounds Seven Shillings, One Penny Half-penny, by Mistake overcharged in the Purchase-money for several forfeited and other Estates and Interests in Ireland, purchased by them," as fit to pass, without any Amendment.


Then in 1708

An Act for limiting a Time for Persons to come in and make their Claims to any of the forfeited Estates, and other Interests in Ireland, sold by the Trustees for Sale of those Estates to the Governor and Company for making hollow Sword-blades in England, and divers other Purchasers.

There is quite a lot of information out there in simple searches for the Hollow Sword Blades Company but I had first encountered it in searches at the
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/ A worthwhile venue to register for, as you can cookie/shelf articles you arew reading/searching/researching.

This quickly if of interest and the town being set up in control by the company. No doubt some of the legal issues that followed were sprung from that.
http://www.northantrim.com/aboutcushendall.htm

Cheers

GC

P.S.

The original search string query there might still work.
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/res...w+sword+blades

nope but there's lot on that site and now generally on the net at large

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks very much for the backup Glen on the 'hollow' term, which seems to be somewhat esoteric as to its history and application. Your access to these kinds of resources is as always extremely impressive!!!

I understand what Manuel is going for here, a bit more descriptive term for what seems to be a rather unusual geometric shape in cross section, and eludes the standard terms such as 'triangular' or three edged 'trefoil' .
The hollow term seems defeated in degree as an accurate term as it is more applicable toward the noted German process for fullering to lighten and strengthen blades, and may refer to various cross sections.

The term 'foliate' seems better applied to decorative style than to geometric shape, and Im not sure 'keeled' will work either as it is a structural term which brings to mind instantly the boat cross section in which the arcs are convex rather than concave. Excellent word there Fearn!! Mellifluous!! and well placed suggestion.......Manolo, your sense of humor is as always, priceless! on the keeling term.

While we may still be at 'square' one trying to find a better geometrically based term for the section on these blades, I really admire the excellent interaction here in working toward ideas.

All the best,
Jim

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thanks very much for the backup Glen on the 'hollow' term, which seems to be somewhat esoteric as to its history and application. Your access to these kinds of resources is as always extremely impressive!!!

I understand what Manuel is going for here, a bit more descriptive term for what seems to be a rather unusual geometric shape in cross section, and eludes the standard terms such as 'triangular' or three edged 'trefoil' .
The hollow term seems defeated in degree as an accurate term as it is more applicable toward the noted German process for fullering to lighten and strengthen blades, and may refer to various cross sections.

The term 'foliate' seems better applied to decorative style than to geometric shape, and Im not sure 'keeled' will work either as it is a structural term which brings to mind instantly the boat cross section in which the arcs are convex rather than concave. Excellent word there Fearn!! Mellifluous!! and well placed suggestion.......Manolo, your sense of humor is as always, priceless! on the keeling term.

While we may still be at 'square' one trying to find a better geometrically based term for the section on these blades, I really admire the excellent interaction here in working toward ideas.

All the best,
Jim

There is an old Scott Bubar thread somewhere when the cross-section was being dissected in terminology.

The hollow term seems defeated in degree as an accurate term as it is more applicable toward the noted German process for fullering to lighten and strengthen blades, and may refer to various cross sections.

I would somewhat disagree with that logic. Fullering was regarded in texts long before the Hollow Swords Company came along in the economy of the late 17th century. Fullering sword blades was certainly nothing new, pretty much world wide.

I do agree with my thoughts that perhaps a cutler's term makes more sense than making something up to suit a passing fancy.

Cheers

GC

PS

Ah, here is the thread I was remembering
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=18347

E.B. writes there

Hi Scott,

I do see what you mean. I guess it depends on how Hope was using the term "Konigsmark". In the late 1700s was this term used as we use it, to define a hollowground (usually), triangular blade with an expanded forte for parrying? I wonder because by the time of Hope's writing, the colichemarde was way out of fashion, although I imagine you could still see them on the street. Is he possibly using "Konigsmark" as a catchall term for smallsword blades? I don't have a copy of Hope, so I'll defer to your judgement on how he uses the term!

By the way, last night after I posted, I came across a photo of a narrow 3 cornered blade in the current Wallis and Wallis auction. This one is only 28" long, is stamped with a crown and IR, and is unfullered. From the photo, it may be a bit wider than the ones I mentioned yesterday. The hilt is of the sideloop variety, although this one has an additional scrolled sidebranch coming off the
knucklebow. Here's a photo!

--ElJay

Simply to put forth that period descriptions may be a better fit for describing just about anything. In that case an individual associated with a blade type.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by celtan

: ... So I guess we have settled on "Keeled Hollow Triangular". Fine and dandy...

Never; better call it "triple concave blade". How's that ?

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...Now you're talkin!!! That works for me, nicely done!!
You guys are the best,
Jim

Originally Posted by celtan

: ... Nopey Nando, an estoc's triangular blade can be triply-concave,without having the center valley groove. What I'm looking here is for a term that can only be employed to describe this very strange shape, with the center keel formed from the form of the opposite concave sides/facets/mesas. Keeled is perfect, although my original foliate would have done the trick. But since you don't like foliate, I'm willing to use the alternate Keeled or "de quilla". I don't think the word "quillado" exists in The Language...

Then, we could always create it...Hmmm.: )

Yes, we have "quilhado" over here; from the verb quilhar, which either means to mount a keel or to prejudice someone.

-

[cornelistromp]

This kind of crosscut is called ahorn leaf, in europeische hieb und stiechwaffen by Mueller and Koenig

Best regards

[celtan]

Danke Schoen, freund!


At last, proper terminology.


See Nando? _Leaf_, like in "foliate", 'member?

I was right, you were wrong Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah,

Best

(Der) M (eister)

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

This kind of crosscut is called ahorn leaf, in Europeische hieb und steichwaffen by Mueller and Koenig

Best regards

[Jim McDougall]

LOL!!!
Beautiful Cornelis, thank you for finally resolving this with the actual term used....notes adjusted accordingly.

Manolo, you have been right all along and actually when it comes down to it, botanical terms are indeed often used in sword descriptions.....leaf shaped, in China the 'willow leaf', as are some of the Indian blade shapes.

Glen, thank you for mentioning Scott, it makes me happy to see him still in the tumble here!!! He was a great guy!!!

All the best,
Jim

[cornelistromp]

your welcome,

herewith also some other cross blade shapes

best,

[fernando]

Originally Posted by celtan

... See Nando? ... I was right, you were wrong Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah,

Best

(Der) M (eister)

Alright, alright
You can take the cup with you ... M(eister) Manolin

[fernando]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

your welcome,

herewith also some other cross blade shapes

best,

Thank you so much for that, Cornelis; a good thing to save to our records

Pity is not (also) in english ... not to mention portuguese

[celtan]

Will the cup be filled with a tawny Oporto?

: )

Best regards to all

Manolo

Originally Posted by fernando

Alright, alright
You can take the cup with you ... M(eister) Manolin

[fernando]

Originally Posted by celtan

Will the cup be filled with a tawny Oporto?

: )

Best regards to all

Manolo

What about this one; a fine Niepoort harvest, bottled in a limited edition to comemorate the 25 years of the Portuguese Academy of Antique Arms ... featuring a 18th century "Molinhas" lock.

[fearn]

If someone can give me good translations for those terms, I think I can photoshop those images into English at least. Or Portuguese.

F