Another one for identification, please

Loedjoe · 30th October 2012, 08:03 AM

Possibly Sumatra (from the style and materials of the scabbard), similar in shape to a pichangatti, perhaps a type of wedung? 38 cm out of its sheath. The base of the blade decorated with indentations similar to greneng on a keris blade, horn hilt, the foot of the sheath and the top of the mouthpiece each with a plain thick plate of copper.

kai · 30th October 2012, 09:41 AM

Congrats, that's a sweet one!

It doesn't look like Aceh (Garo/Alas) work to me nor does it seem to have the usual Batak features (e. g. those filed silver rings at the top and the foot of the scabbard instead of the traditional braided silver wire). Minang or Palembang/Lampung don't seem to fit that well either - I'm stumped...

It does have a wedung feel to it. However, at least the Palembang kraton is on record for much more faithfully copying central Javanese style.

I wonder why the blade has a rather coarse finish without any obvious 3D features. What is the maximum thickness? Etch it!

Judging from patina/etc., how old would you estimate the horn hilt and the scabbard to be? From the pics, I get the impression that this may be a bit later work: possibly WW2 period?

Regards,
Kai

Sajen · 30th October 2012, 07:36 PM

Wow, very nice knife, never seen something similar before. My first guess would have been Batak origin. The different metals at the sheath give me this "feeling". Is the cap at the handle from gold?

Regards,

Detlef

Battara · 31st October 2012, 04:34 AM

I like this piece with all the silver, and yes, gold..........

Loedjoe · 31st October 2012, 08:21 AM

Thank you all very much for your comments.

Kai - the coarse finish of the blade puzzled me, too. I tentatively thought mid-20th cent. for the date - which makes me wonder whether it is a 'real' weapon, or a tourist piece. The maximum thickness of the blade, at the base, is 7 mm, narowing very gradually to about 4 mm before it slopes down to the tip - quite a heavy blade. If I knew how to etch the blade I would probably try it, but I am very nervous about trying anything, and possibly causing damage.
Sajen, and Battara, yes, the little cap is gold.

kai · 1st November 2012, 12:24 AM

Hello,

Quote:

the coarse finish of the blade puzzled me, too. I tentatively thought mid-20th cent. for the date - which makes me wonder whether it is a 'real' weapon, or a tourist piece.

If we agree on approx. mid-20th c., this would explain the not fully traditional workmanship (also on the scabbard) and also may open up possibilities which I excluded below. Maybe not tourist/fantasy bur rather for ceremonial use, hopefully.

Quote:

If I knew how to etch the blade I would probably try it, but I am very nervous about trying anything, and possibly causing damage.

Since there is no patina (except on the bolster and ferrule), there is nothing which can't be reversed after a quick etch: in this case I'd suggest wiping the blade only with FeCl3 or, preferably, warangan treatment (the latter is more gentle but needs more experience).

Will get you some links later...

Regards,
Kai

Atlantia · 1st November 2012, 12:39 AM

I also think it's a Wedung variant.
Although it's not overly like my two Wedung:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13914

It's got strong similarites to other knives I've seen described as Wedung on the net.

Royston · 12th November 2012, 04:48 PM

A bit like this one then.

I have had this a long time. Always thought that it was from Java, but I wouldn't call it a Wedong. For me it is too small and not solid or heavy enough.
Interesting to see one with the pommel cap. Mine must have been lost or prized off for the value of the metal.

Your's is only the second of it's type that I have seen.

Regards
Roy

VVV · 12th November 2012, 06:00 PM

Interesting knife,

I have never seen any of those before, either IRL or in any Indonesian reference works?

Michael

kai · 12th November 2012, 08:27 PM

Bingo, Roy, that seems to suggest a pattern rather than a one-off!

Very similar indeed, down to the scabbard and the file-worked silver bands (please post close-ups!). How do the bottom and the top of the scabbard look like - done in silver this time?

From the looks I'd guess that your's may also come from a similar period (perhaps a tad earlier into 20th c.?); so, the jury may be still out how any antique version may have looked.

Thanks so much for posting both of these enigmas!

Regards,
Kai

30th October 2012, 08:03 AM	#1
Loedjoe Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Oxford (UK) Posts: 96	Another one for identification, please Possibly Sumatra (from the style and materials of the scabbard), similar in shape to a pichangatti, perhaps a type of wedung? 38 cm out of its sheath. The base of the blade decorated with indentations similar to greneng on a keris blade, horn hilt, the foot of the sheath and the top of the mouthpiece each with a plain thick plate of copper. Attached Images

12th November 2012, 04:48 PM	#8
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	A bit like this one then. I have had this a long time. Always thought that it was from Java, but I wouldn't call it a Wedong. For me it is too small and not solid or heavy enough. Interesting to see one with the pommel cap. Mine must have been lost or prized off for the value of the metal. Your's is only the second of it's type that I have seen. Regards Roy Attached Images

30th October 2012, 09:41 AM	#2
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Congrats, that's a sweet one! It doesn't look like Aceh (Garo/Alas) work to me nor does it seem to have the usual Batak features (e. g. those filed silver rings at the top and the foot of the scabbard instead of the traditional braided silver wire). Minang or Palembang/Lampung don't seem to fit that well either - I'm stumped... It does have a wedung feel to it. However, at least the Palembang kraton is on record for much more faithfully copying central Javanese style. I wonder why the blade has a rather coarse finish without any obvious 3D features. What is the maximum thickness? Etch it! Judging from patina/etc., how old would you estimate the horn hilt and the scabbard to be? From the pics, I get the impression that this may be a bit later work: possibly WW2 period? Regards, Kai

30th October 2012, 07:36 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,761	Wow, very nice knife, never seen something similar before. My first guess would have been Batak origin. The different metals at the sheath give me this "feeling". Is the cap at the handle from gold? Regards, Detlef

31st October 2012, 04:34 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,218	I like this piece with all the silver, and yes, gold..........

31st October 2012, 08:21 AM	#5
Loedjoe Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Oxford (UK) Posts: 96	Thank you all very much for your comments. Kai - the coarse finish of the blade puzzled me, too. I tentatively thought mid-20th cent. for the date - which makes me wonder whether it is a 'real' weapon, or a tourist piece. The maximum thickness of the blade, at the base, is 7 mm, narowing very gradually to about 4 mm before it slopes down to the tip - quite a heavy blade. If I knew how to etch the blade I would probably try it, but I am very nervous about trying anything, and possibly causing damage. Sajen, and Battara, yes, the little cap is gold.

1st November 2012, 12:39 AM	#7
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I also think it's a Wedung variant. Although it's not overly like my two Wedung: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13914 It's got strong similarites to other knives I've seen described as Wedung on the net.

12th November 2012, 06:00 PM	#9
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Interesting knife, I have never seen any of those before, either IRL or in any Indonesian reference works? Michael

12th November 2012, 08:27 PM	#10
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Bingo, Roy, that seems to suggest a pattern rather than a one-off! Very similar indeed, down to the scabbard and the file-worked silver bands (please post close-ups!). How do the bottom and the top of the scabbard look like - done in silver this time? From the looks I'd guess that your's may also come from a similar period (perhaps a tad earlier into 20th c.?); so, the jury may be still out how any antique version may have looked. Thanks so much for posting both of these enigmas! Regards, Kai