Question about Bugis hilts

Sajen · 12th July 2009, 07:28 PM

Dear Members,

when I see the picture from my Bugis handle in this threat:http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10438 I remember that I have some Bugis handles from ivory which have a "dent" at the feet of the hilt. I never give a lot alertness to this until a antique dealer from Bali, byself Bugi, ask me if I have seen this by some handles already and ask me if I have a explanation for this. I don't have!
I want to ask you, if you also have Bugis handles with this dent and know more about.

sajen

Rick · 12th July 2009, 09:05 PM

Hi Sajen ,
I wonder if these might not be natural structure to the tooth , or piece of ivory being carved .

Most of these flaws at the base could be covered by the 'cup' .

Sajen · 12th July 2009, 10:02 PM

Hello Rick,

this I've thought also long time until this Bugis dealer ask me about this. He have had to this time five handle from this form in his shop and two from this handles have had this dent. I byself have seven handles and three have this dent. I have handled maybe around 100 Bugis handles made from ivory and found this dent by around one third of this handles but never have seen it by for example Jawa Deman handles from ivory. I ask also a collector from Germany who have a big collection of handles and he found it also by some of his handles. Only at Bugis handles I've seen this. This have taken me aback a little bit. But it's true what you write, this dent is every time placed like this that it is covered by the Pendokok.

sajen

Rick · 12th July 2009, 10:44 PM

Hi Sajen, marine ivory is rarely circular in cross section .

If I were a hilt carver I would want to use a smaller tooth; less waste and cost that way .

Possibly these 'dented' Bugis hilts are all from the toothed whales ?

The Bugis are traditionally great seafarers and traders .
A connection ?

Sajen · 12th July 2009, 10:54 PM

Hi Rick,

the last big one I show is from Hippo, the other both I cant say exactly. But tomorrow I will do some research for the material from the others.

sajen

Rick · 13th July 2009, 12:36 AM

Hi Sajen,

Hippo teeth can't be that big either (compared to Elephant ivory); nor do they demonstrate a consistently circular cross section .

Can we call Hippo marine ivory ??

I would still posit that being carved from a smaller tooth it would unavoidably include some of the exterior topography of the source .

Hide it under the cup, no ?

asomotif · 13th July 2009, 01:03 AM

Hello Detlef,

Interesting thread.

Quote:

never have seen it by for example Jawa Deman handles from ivory.

Where these Jawa deman hilts from marine ivory. or elephant ?

I think that marine ivory often is indeed a tooth from a whale.
And indeed to make a bugis keris hilt out of such a tooth, I can imagine you need to play with the form and material that you have available.

Quote:

Can we call Hippo marine ivory ??

No, Hippo is Hippo, they don't go out to sea

Rick · 13th July 2009, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

No, Hippo is Hippo, they don't go out to sea

Awwww ...

ganjawulung · 13th July 2009, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

I want to ask you, if you also have Bugis handles with this dent and know more about.

sajen

Dear Sajen,

Your first hilt, IMHO, is not Bugis hilt. It is Sumbawa hilt. Sumbawa has similar warangka as Bugis, but different hilt (cf "Keris di Lombok" book, by Lalu Djelenga)

GANJAWULUNG

Sajen · 13th July 2009, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear Sajen,

Your first hilt, IMHO, is not Bugis hilt. It is Sumbawa hilt. Sumbawa has similar warangka as Bugis, but different hilt (cf "Keris di Lombok" book, by Lalu Djelenga)

GANJAWULUNG

Hello Ganja,

is my information incorrect that this handles are typical for Bugis Riau-Lingga?

Best regards,

sajen

Alam Shah · 13th July 2009, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Ganja,
is my information incorrect that this handles are typical for Bugis Riau-Lingga?
Best regards,

sajen

I've seen this hilt form in kerisses from Johor-Riau-Lingga and also Sumbawa pieces, although there are slight variations in between.. In this example, it looks much similar to the Sumbawa form..

Btw, I have a few Bugis hilts with the 'dent' as well. Interesting question..

Marcokeris · 14th July 2009, 11:34 AM

IMO the first is from Sumbawa. I have one twin (but not ivory ... wood made) like this and the seller told me is surely from Sumbawa. Now i'm in Bali but when at home i put a pic. Nice hits Sajen

Sajen · 14th July 2009, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

IMO the first is from Sumbawa. I have one twin (but not ivory ... wood made) like this and the seller told me is surely from Sumbawa. Now i'm in Bali but when at home i put a pic. Nice hits Sajen

Thank you Marco you lucky man, please give greetings to my second home!

sajen

Sajen · 14th July 2009, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Hi Sajen,

Hippo teeth can't be that big either (compared to Elephant ivory); nor do they demonstrate a consistently circular cross section .

Can we call Hippo marine ivory ??

I would still posit that being carved from a smaller tooth it would unavoidably include some of the exterior topography of the source .

Hide it under the cup, no ?

Hi Rick,

the last hilt is for sure from Hippo, look at the line with the black spots, a sign for ivory from Hippo. The first hilt I show is in my opinion also from this material but more difficult to see because the dark patination. And the carved one maybe also but very difficult to say exactly because you don't have a plain surface. I have some big examples from this material.

sajen

Sajen · 14th July 2009, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

I've seen this hilt form in kerisses from Johor-Riau-Lingga and also Sumbawa pieces, although there are slight variations in between.. In this example, it looks much similar to the Sumbawa form..

Btw, I have a few Bugis hilts with the 'dent' as well. Interesting question..

Hi Alam,

you have seen this "dent" by other hilts also or only by this Bugis hilt form?
My guess when it is a natural dent you will find this also by Jawa Deman hilts for example. I don't want to say that this dent isn't natural but maybe the carver let this dent by a special intention?

sajen

Sajen · 14th July 2009, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear Sajen,

Your first hilt, IMHO, is not Bugis hilt. It is Sumbawa hilt. Sumbawa has similar warangka as Bugis, but different hilt (cf "Keris di Lombok" book, by Lalu Djelenga)

GANJAWULUNG

Dear Ganja,

when so many people think that it is a Sumbawa hilt it will be like this. But isn't the Sumbawa kris not also strongly influenced by Bugis?
But nevertheless thank you very much for give me the exacly origin of this hilt.

sajen

Alam Shah · 14th July 2009, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Alam,

you have seen this "dent" by other hilts also or only by this Bugis hilt form?
My guess when it is a natural dent you will find this also by Jawa Deman hilts for example. I don't want to say that this dent isn't natural but maybe the carver let this dent by a special intention?

sajen

I've seen on Jawa Demam form as well, and a few Javanese Nunggak Semi form, mainly ivory pieces..
For the Bugis hilt, there might be a special purpose esoterically.. so I'm told.

Sajen · 14th July 2009, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

I've seen on Jawa Demam form as well, and a few Javanese Nunggak Semi form, mainly ivory pieces..
For the Bugis hilt, there might be a special purpose esoterically.. so I'm told.

This is what I'm intended by my question before.

sajen

sipakatuo · 17th July 2009, 03:05 AM

The dent (natural, NOT man made) is related to mystic or so called esoteri aspect.

Rick · 17th July 2009, 03:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sipakatuo

The dent (natural, NOT man made) is related to mystic or so called esoteri aspect.

Could you elaborate upon this subject a little more sipakatuo .

ganjawulung · 17th July 2009, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

when so many people think that it is a Sumbawa hilt it will be like this. But isn't the Sumbawa kris not also strongly influenced by Bugis?
But nevertheless thank you very much for give me the exacly origin of this hilt.

According to Ir Lalu Djelenga's note ("Keris di Lombok", 1994, 2000) there was close relation between Lombok (Bali and Lombok -- or Gelgel, according to Djelenga's note) and kerajaan (kingdom) of Gowa in Sulawesi or Celebes. Particularly after The Dutch (I prefer to say it was European multi-national Company of Verenigde Oost Indische Compagnie or VOC) dominated Batavia (Jakarta now) since 1602.

Then Gowa, according to Djelenga (he is from noble blood of Lombok), was increasing good political relation with Selaparang (Lombok), Sumbawa, Bima, Dompu until Manggarai (in Eastern Nusa Tenggara). Then in March 16, 1624 there was a treaty between these powers, they called it Saganing Treaty. And a Gowa Prince, Mas Pamayan or Pemban Mas Aji Komala, was appointed as a Prince or Governor in the name of Gowa in the western part of Sumbawa, since November 30, 1648...

Dear Sajen, these pictures below -- hopefully -- with the same style of your "Sumbawa" ivory hilt. I have two of these kinds, one with carvings and the other without carving...

GANJAWULUNG

ganjawulung · 17th July 2009, 10:47 AM

More example on such kind of hilt...

GANJAWULUNG

Sajen · 17th July 2009, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sipakatuo

The dent (natural, NOT man made) is related to mystic or so called esoteri aspect.

Hello Sipakatuo,

that the dent is natural and not made by hand is clearly to see but I suspect just this mystic or in bahasa Indonesia esoteri aspect behind this dent. Do you know more about this?

Regards,

sajen

Sajen · 17th July 2009, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

According to Ir Lalu Djelenga's note ("Keris di Lombok", 1994, 2000) there was close relation between Lombok (Bali and Lombok -- or Gelgel, according to Djelenga's note) and kerajaan (kingdom) of Gowa in Sulawesi or Celebes. Particularly after The Dutch (I prefer to say it was European multi-national Company of Verenigde Oost Indische Compagnie or VOC) dominated Batavia (Jakarta now) since 1602.

Then Gowa, according to Djelenga (he is from noble blood of Lombok), was increasing good political relation with Selaparang (Lombok), Sumbawa, Bima, Dompu until Manggarai (in Eastern Nusa Tenggara). Then in March 16, 1624 there was a treaty between these powers, they called it Saganing Treaty. And a Gowa Prince, Mas Pamayan or Pemban Mas Aji Komala, was appointed as a Prince or Governor in the name of Gowa in the western part of Sumbawa, since November 30, 1648...

Dear Sajen, these pictures below -- hopefully -- with the same style of your "Sumbawa" ivory hilt. I have two of these kinds, one with carvings and the other without carving...

GANJAWULUNG

Dear Ganja,

thank you very much for this background information. I also have the book from Ir Lalu Djelenga but my bahasa Indonesia is not good enough to understand all well as you.
BTW, very nice hilts you have there.

Kind regards,

sajen

Sajen · 17th July 2009, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Could you elaborate upon this subject a little more sipakatuo .

Yes Rick, I also want to know more about, for this reason I started this threat because I think that there is a mystic background.

Detlef

sipakatuo · 18th July 2009, 03:10 AM

The dent is to protect the owner from misfortune and evil spirit. We called hilts as 'Pangulu' and when the materials made from Sea Ivory or Ivory we called it 'Pangulu Buku'. The pangulu buku itself is an attribute of nobilty. Pangulu buku is required (a must have) whenever there is a ritual ceremony in the palace. Pangulu buku can also be use as a medication for children with high fever, soaking it into a bowl of water for a day and allow it to drink.

Sajen · 18th July 2009, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sipakatuo

The dent is to protect the owner from misfortune and evil spirit. We called hilts as 'Pangulu' and when the materials made from Sea Ivory or Ivory we called it 'Pangulu Buku'. The pangulu buku itself is an attribute of nobilty. Pangulu buku is required (a must have) whenever there is a ritual ceremony in the palace. Pangulu buku can also be use as a medication for children with high fever, soaking it into a bowl of water for a day and allow it to drink.

Thank you very much for this detailed explanation. So I understand now also why you can find Pangulu Buku where some material is cratched away. This missing material was used for medicine, correct?

sajen

sipakatuo · 18th July 2009, 02:35 PM

Correct Sajen.

Marcokeris · 20th July 2009, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

IMO the first is from Sumbawa. I have one twin (but not ivory ... wood made) like this and the seller told me is surely from Sumbawa. Now i'm in Bali but when at home i put a pic. Nice hits Sajen

....

12th July 2009, 07:28 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,786	Question about Bugis hilts Dear Members, when I see the picture from my Bugis handle in this threat:http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10438 I remember that I have some Bugis handles from ivory which have a "dent" at the feet of the hilt. I never give a lot alertness to this until a antique dealer from Bali, byself Bugi, ask me if I have seen this by some handles already and ask me if I have a explanation for this. I don't have! I want to ask you, if you also have Bugis handles with this dent and know more about. sajen Attached Images

12th July 2009, 10:02 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,786	Hello Rick, this I've thought also long time until this Bugis dealer ask me about this. He have had to this time five handle from this form in his shop and two from this handles have had this dent. I byself have seven handles and three have this dent. I have handled maybe around 100 Bugis handles made from ivory and found this dent by around one third of this handles but never have seen it by for example Jawa Deman handles from ivory. I ask also a collector from Germany who have a big collection of handles and he found it also by some of his handles. Only at Bugis handles I've seen this. This have taken me aback a little bit. But it's true what you write, this dent is every time placed like this that it is covered by the Pendokok. sajen Last edited by Sajen; 12th July 2009 at 10:14 PM.

17th July 2009, 10:47 AM	#22
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	More example on such kind of hilt... GANJAWULUNG Attached Images

12th July 2009, 09:05 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Hi Sajen , I wonder if these might not be natural structure to the tooth , or piece of ivory being carved . Most of these flaws at the base could be covered by the 'cup' .

12th July 2009, 10:44 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Hi Sajen, marine ivory is rarely circular in cross section . If I were a hilt carver I would want to use a smaller tooth; less waste and cost that way . Possibly these 'dented' Bugis hilts are all from the toothed whales ? The Bugis are traditionally great seafarers and traders . A connection ?

12th July 2009, 10:54 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,786	Hi Rick, the last big one I show is from Hippo, the other both I cant say exactly. But tomorrow I will do some research for the material from the others. sajen

13th July 2009, 12:36 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Hi Sajen, Hippo teeth can't be that big either (compared to Elephant ivory); nor do they demonstrate a consistently circular cross section . Can we call Hippo marine ivory ?? I would still posit that being carved from a smaller tooth it would unavoidably include some of the exterior topography of the source . Hide it under the cup, no ?

14th July 2009, 11:34 AM	#12
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	IMO the first is from Sumbawa. I have one twin (but not ivory ... wood made) like this and the seller told me is surely from Sumbawa. Now i'm in Bali but when at home i put a pic. Nice hits Sajen

17th July 2009, 03:05 AM	#19
sipakatuo Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 59	The dent (natural, NOT man made) is related to mystic or so called esoteri aspect.

18th July 2009, 03:10 AM	#26
sipakatuo Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 59	The dent is to protect the owner from misfortune and evil spirit. We called hilts as 'Pangulu' and when the materials made from Sea Ivory or Ivory we called it 'Pangulu Buku'. The pangulu buku itself is an attribute of nobilty. Pangulu buku is required (a must have) whenever there is a ritual ceremony in the palace. Pangulu buku can also be use as a medication for children with high fever, soaking it into a bowl of water for a day and allow it to drink.

18th July 2009, 02:35 PM	#28
sipakatuo Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 59	Correct Sajen.