An interesting disaster

Ian · 11th September 2015, 08:37 AM

Sometimes things just don't turn out well when buying through the mail.

A few weeks ago I made a moderately expensive online purchase of an old Buddha ceremonial sword that appeared to have a silver finish on it. It was probably Thai in origin and likely 18th or 19th C. The overall length was roughly 24 inches, which is large for items of this type.

When it arrived, I was dismayed to find that the blade had snapped in two during transit as a result of inferior packaging by the seller (who has promised to make good on the cost, and with whom I have had no unpleasantness). My disappointment was somewhat allayed when I noticed that the "sword" comprised a stone core with a thin metal sheet covering. The whole thing was quite heavy, weighing roughly 4.4 pounds (2 kg), which was one of the attractions when I saw it online--my first thought was that it was solid bronze.

Now, I am wondering if this was a common practice with ritual/religious objects of SE Asia. Has anyone had similar experiences with knives that were stone covered with metal? Perhaps it was a common type of construction or an old way of perpetrating a fraud (a cheap core sold as solid metal).

Attached are pictures of the sword/knife in two pieces and a close up of the stone core.

Ian

A. G. Maisey · 11th September 2015, 10:51 AM

Ian, I cannot comment on this weapon you have purchased, but I can comment on this type of work.

Many different artifacts are made in the same way in Jawa and Bali, including keris and sword hilts.

The hilt is fabricated, then it is embossed or chased and finally it is filled with jabung, probably what we'd call 'cutlers wax' in English:- natural resin + bees wax + terra cotta dust is the most common mix. Stuff that has been in a hilt for a long time does look a bit like stone.

The only solid metal hilts I've seen in Jawa and Bali are souvenir pieces that have been cast.

Shakethetrees · 11th September 2015, 11:06 AM

I've run across this before.

What this is is a cast brass or bronze blade, with no post pour forging.

Some of the hard shell outer mold sloughed off during the pour and was included at the break point. Since this is not a metal to metal bond, it was destined to break at this point.

I've seen this frequently in decorative castings. If you look at the break there is usually some tarnished or oxidized parent metal adjacent to the inclusion. Next to this is a bright bit of the parent metal, which over time and with wear and tear, careless handling, etc. the crack that forms at the point of the inclusion grows and ages, until something catastrophic happens.

This can usually be repaired, depending on surface issues and how the break is positioned with respect to the overall form.

Kubur · 11th September 2015, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

My disappointment was somewhat allayed when I noticed that the "sword" comprised a stone core with a thin metal sheet covering.
Attached are pictures of the sword/knife in two pieces and a close up of the stone core.
Ian

It's not a stone core but an Iron slag. I think.
So basically your sword was made of badly forged Iron covered with cooper or brass...
IMHO

Best,
Kubur

Ian · 11th September 2015, 03:18 PM

Gents:

Thank you all for your helpful suggestions. I did omit one further piece of information. On the broken surface of the blade, a small round "pebble" dislodged itself from the middle of the broken surface. I found it in the shipping package. When I scratched the broken surface of the core, a fine red dust was easily produced. Not sure that this helps the discussion.

Ian.

Shakethetrees · 12th September 2015, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

your sword was made of badly forged Iron covered with cooper or brass...
IMHO

Best,
Kubur

Nope. If you look closely you can see the granular texture of cast brass.

The inclusion could have some stray iron from filings or some other source giving you the red powder you mention.

The process of covering an iron blade with brass is time consuming and counterproductive, and the visual evidence clearly shows its a casting.

Ian · 12th September 2015, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

Nope. If you look closely you can see the granular texture of cast brass.

The inclusion could have some stray iron from filings or some other source giving you the red powder you mention.

The process of covering an iron blade with brass is time consuming and counterproductive, and the visual evidence clearly shows its a casting.

Shakethetrees:

Thank you again for adding to your comments. I have received confirmation of your opinions via email from two experts, one an academic metallurgist, and the other a noted expert on SE Asian art and a sword maker himself.

The metallurgist confirmed that this is an example of a non-metallic inclusion within a copper alloy (bronze/brass) casting, leading to fracturing of the casting at the point of the inclusion. Testing with a magnet shows that none of the material is attracted to the magnet and therefore there is little or no iron in it.

The second person noted that the piece is a recently made copy of an old Khmer ritual knife. Such copies are common in Thailand and are passed off as genuine antiques (in other words, they are fakes). I was aware, of course, of the fake trade in these knives but was hoping that this one might be older--the price was not outrageous and I thought it was worth the risk.

I was wrong, but the damage that resulted during shipping means that I will not be out of pocket because of my mistake, and I have learned a bit more about copper alloy casting and the structure of these items.

Thanks again to all who responded. Live and learn!

Ian.

11th September 2015, 08:37 AM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,207	An interesting disaster Sometimes things just don't turn out well when buying through the mail. A few weeks ago I made a moderately expensive online purchase of an old Buddha ceremonial sword that appeared to have a silver finish on it. It was probably Thai in origin and likely 18th or 19th C. The overall length was roughly 24 inches, which is large for items of this type. When it arrived, I was dismayed to find that the blade had snapped in two during transit as a result of inferior packaging by the seller (who has promised to make good on the cost, and with whom I have had no unpleasantness). My disappointment was somewhat allayed when I noticed that the "sword" comprised a stone core with a thin metal sheet covering. The whole thing was quite heavy, weighing roughly 4.4 pounds (2 kg), which was one of the attractions when I saw it online--my first thought was that it was solid bronze. Now, I am wondering if this was a common practice with ritual/religious objects of SE Asia. Has anyone had similar experiences with knives that were stone covered with metal? Perhaps it was a common type of construction or an old way of perpetrating a fraud (a cheap core sold as solid metal). Attached are pictures of the sword/knife in two pieces and a close up of the stone core. Ian Attached Images

11th September 2015, 10:51 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Ian, I cannot comment on this weapon you have purchased, but I can comment on this type of work. Many different artifacts are made in the same way in Jawa and Bali, including keris and sword hilts. The hilt is fabricated, then it is embossed or chased and finally it is filled with jabung, probably what we'd call 'cutlers wax' in English:- natural resin + bees wax + terra cotta dust is the most common mix. Stuff that has been in a hilt for a long time does look a bit like stone. The only solid metal hilts I've seen in Jawa and Bali are souvenir pieces that have been cast.

11th September 2015, 11:06 AM	#3
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	I've run across this before. What this is is a cast brass or bronze blade, with no post pour forging. Some of the hard shell outer mold sloughed off during the pour and was included at the break point. Since this is not a metal to metal bond, it was destined to break at this point. I've seen this frequently in decorative castings. If you look at the break there is usually some tarnished or oxidized parent metal adjacent to the inclusion. Next to this is a bright bit of the parent metal, which over time and with wear and tear, careless handling, etc. the crack that forms at the point of the inclusion grows and ages, until something catastrophic happens. This can usually be repaired, depending on surface issues and how the break is positioned with respect to the overall form.

11th September 2015, 03:18 PM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,207	Gents: Thank you all for your helpful suggestions. I did omit one further piece of information. On the broken surface of the blade, a small round "pebble" dislodged itself from the middle of the broken surface. I found it in the shipping package. When I scratched the broken surface of the core, a fine red dust was easily produced. Not sure that this helps the discussion. Ian.