The Maillotin Namesake Weapon

Queequeg · 10th March 2009, 12:18 AM

I'm reading Barbara Tuchman's A Distant Mirror and just finished an interesting chapter about the 1382 Maillotin Uprising in France.

In response to further taxes from the crown, residents of Paris,

Quote:

...broke into the Hotel de Ville in the Place de Greve, where they seized 3,000 long-handled mallets normally used by the police. Mounted with cylindrical heads of lead and wielded with both hands, these had been stored by Hugues Aubriot in case of need against the English, and now gave their name to the insurgents as Maillotins.

Information on the Maillotin Uprising on the internet is pretty scant. I can't find anything at all on what their namesake mallets looked like. Does anyone have any pictures?

Jim McDougall · 10th March 2009, 09:07 PM

Well, again Queequeg, you really come up with some esoterica!
Barbara Tuchman's work is always outstanding, and its hard to imagine the detail she typically includes, let alone finding information that exceeds her research. As you have cited, the insurgents apparantly broke into the Hotel de Ville, taking 3000 lead mallets. The only other references I have found refer to the location as an 'arms depot' and talking the mallets.

It seems sometimes semantics and terminology can be confounding in determining actuality in events and descriptions of things associated.
I am not clear on what police organization was like in these times, nor the type of mallets that might have been used.

It does seem clear these were utilitarian in nature rather than the 'martel de fer' or war hammer of the times, which had a spike type poll, and it is noted these mallets had cylindrical heads. In a description of the Battle of Agincourt some years later, John Keegan ("The Face of Battle") notes the use of lead mallets used for driving tent stakes, used to knock knights off horses. While this is obviously the standard instance of using whatever is at hand in the heat of the moment in battle, it seemed interesting that these implements were of lead, and seemingly a component of army ordnance.
This more than anything, demonstrates the effective use of a utilitarian tool against armed opponents, as probably faced by the maillots.

In iconic artwork, there is a painting titled "The Mystic Marraige of St. Catherine" associated in the predella in its display in Boston, depicting St. Margaret of Antioch striking the demon beelzebub with a large 'hammer or mallet', in one interpretation.
Perhaps locating that artwork might give some idea, as it is of related period.

It would seem that museums in France might have such implements in some display, and it would be interesting to discover more on this. It seems that this carries into your previous interest in the shillelagh, and also to the earlier discussions here on the history of the 'billy club' or truncheons used by police. Interesting topics, and hopefully we will hear more.

All the best,
Jim

katana · 10th March 2009, 11:18 PM

Hi Queequeg and Jim

,
I too have tried to find out more....with little sucess

Jim has beaten me with the references to Agincourt. The lead mallets used by the archers were also used to drive stakes into the ground, as a defence against horse charges. During the melee a number of archers used these mallets effectively against the French Knights (but we must consider the fact that the ground was extremely muddy and the knights had great difficulty in their mobility....this could have helped the 'effectiveness' of the use of the mallets.)

I did find a reference about an iron mallet, used as a weapon (in France) but there were no further details .....

Regards David

Jim McDougall · 10th March 2009, 11:44 PM

Hi David,
Its good to have you here on this! and thought about you as I read the notes on the Agincourt archers lead mallets (thinkin' outside the box

) and thier possible presence in an armoury, but wondered why these were the only weapons in an arms depot. Then again, why would they store 3000 mallets in a hotel? There was apparantly a lot of civil unrest concerning taxes ( hmmmm, I guess things havent changed much...where are the mallets?)

One item I found noted weapons had been largely confiscated, so perhaps the mallets were considered more implements than weapons? In any case, it seems that the 'mallet' was simple in form, a hafted lead cylinder, and these simple rather mundane 'weapons' probably did not largely survive.

I really dont know much on the organization of 'police' in medieval times, nor how they might have been armed, but this certainly has set the wheels in motion....as always.....curiouser and curiouser!!!

All the best,
Jim

Queequeg · 11th March 2009, 02:35 AM

I have to give you gentlemen kudos. I've posted this on three forums, and the only response I've gotten is here.

You really know your weaponry!

Jim McDougall · 11th March 2009, 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Queequeg

I have to give you gentlemen kudos. I've posted this on three forums, and the only response I've gotten is here.

You really know your weaponry!

Thank you so much Queequeg! We really try hard, and I believe everyone here has a sincere passion for learning together as we go, so your most interesting queries are very much appreciated.
When this forum began in September, the purpose was to accomplish exactly this, to learn together and offer a serious approach to the study of antique arms and armour of all countries and all times.

All very best wishes,
Jim

VANDOO · 11th March 2009, 05:20 AM

VERY INTERESTING I HAD NOT HEARD OF THIS BEFORE.

I WOULD ASSUME FROM WHAT IS IN THE INFORMATION OF YOUR FIRST POST. 1. LONG HANDLES PERHAPS LIKE A CROQUET MALLET,
2. CYLENDRICAL HEADS ONCE AGAIN LIKE A CROQUET MALLET BUT LEAD INSTEAD OF WOOD.

THE THING THAT THROWS ME IS THEY ARE SAID TO HAVE BEEN THERE FOR USE BY POLICE. GENERALLY IN A SITUATION WHERE POLICE CONTROL A MOB THEY WOULD USE A LONG CLUB LIKE OBJECT PERHAPS WEIGHTED WITH LEAD IN THE END BUT NOT MADE LIKE A HAMMER. NOT ONLY WOULD SUCH A HAMMER BE LIKELY TO KILL A UNARMORED CITIZEN IT WOULD BE EASIER TO GET A GRIP BEHIND THAT HEAVY HEAD AND RENDER IT USLESS. SO A MORE STANDARD POLICE TYPE BILLY CLUB IS A POSSIBILITY BECAUSE IF THE OBJECT OF THE POLICE WAS TO KILL A SWORD OR PIKE WOULD BE MUCH BETTER. IF THEY WERE POLICE WEAPONS WHY WERN'T THEY IN THE POLICE STATION AND UNDER GAURD.

THE OTHER POSSIBILTY IS THEY WERE SIMPLY MALLETS USED AS TOOLS TO DRIVE STAKES THAT WERE UNGARDED AND COULD BE USED AS WEAPONS BY THE CITIZENS AND WERE THE BEST THEY HAD READILY AVAILABLE IN LARGE SUPPLY.

NOT TO CHANGE THE SUBJECT BUT THERE IS A MOVIE NOW OUT WHICH IS YET ANOTHER MODERN TWIST TO THE STORY OF BEOWOLF. WHY I MENTION IT HERE IS RON PERLMAN AS A VIKING CIRCIA 740 AD HAS SOME INTERESTING SCENES USING TWO WAR HAMMERS AT ONCE. IT LOOKS VERY FEARSOME AND FAST OF COURSE AND I WOULD HAVE ENJOYED A BIT MORE DETAIL AND TECKNIQUE BUT "THATS HOLLYWOOD"

THE MOVIES NAME IS (OUTLANDER)

Queequeg · 11th March 2009, 06:58 PM

Actually, I've been wondering if that cylindrical head ran the other way, instead of perpendicularly; parallel and part of the handle. Weaponsmith, Sam Salvati, made this piece last year, which I'll use as my example.

Original thread is here, in case the pics don't show up:
http://sbgswordforum.proboards70.com...ay&thread=4649

VANDOO · 11th March 2009, 08:56 PM

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I HAD IN MIND IF IT WAS A POLICE WEAPON RATHER THAN A TOOL. PERHAPS YOUR PICTURES WILL BRING SOMEONE INTO THE DISCUSSION WHO HAS SEEN SOME ORIGINAL EXAMPLES. ONE CAN ONLY HOPE

IT WOULD ALSO BE A WEAPON THAT COULD BE MADE IN PIECES UNDER THE WATCH OF OFFICIALS OF THOSE IN POWER AND THE COMPONENTS QUICKLY ASSEMBLED IN A SAFE AREA WITH LITTLE NEED FOR TOOLS OR NOISE. MATERIALS LEAD SHEET OR PIPE AND A WOOD FARM TOOL HANDLE AND SOME NAILS, TOOLS A HAMMER AND PERHAPS A SAW. SHAPEING LEAD WITH A HAMMER MAKES LITTLE NOISE AND CAN EVEN BE DONE WITH A WOODEN MALLET AND A NAIL EASILY DRIVES THRU LEAD.

ANOTHER THOUGHT I HAD WAS THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN A VERY LARGE POLICE FORCE, MORE LIKE A MILITIA OR SMALL ARMY IF THE ATHORITYS KEPT THAT LARGE AN AMOUNT OF WEAPONS FOR THEIR FORCES. IF THAT WAS THE CASE WHY NOT SUPPLY THEM WITH BETTER WEAPONS, SPEARS, BOWS, SWORDS, SLINGS, ECT.

REASONING FURTHER, PERHAPS THE GROUP ORGANIZING AGAINST THOSE IN POWER REASONED THAT THE ATHORITYS WOULD NOT BE WATCHING CLOSELY WHEN THEY MADE MALLETS WHICH WERE TOOLS. AND IF THE STOCKPILE WAS FOUND IT COULD BE EXPLAINED THAT THEY WERE A LARGE STOCK SOON TO BE SHIPPED AS DEMAND WAS HIGH OR THEY HAD A LARGE ORDER. IF THAT IS THE CASE IT WORKED AS THE ATHORITYS SURELY HAD SPIES WATCHING ANY PLACE THAT COULD FORGE WEAPONS OF ANY SORT AND SPEARS, SWORDS OR BOWS WOULD HAVE BROUGHT IMEDIATE RESPONCE.
NOT VERY HELPFUL AND WITH NO PROOF AND JUST RAMBELING

BUT CONJECTURE IS FUN AND SOMETIMES EVEN POINTS SOMEONE IN THE DIRECTION OF REAL FACTS AND ANSWERS.

fearn · 12th March 2009, 04:41 AM

Hi Vandoo,

Better keep hoping, 'cause I don't have an example. Well...

Actually, if you google "carver's mallet," you'll see a modern example of a round-headed wooden mallet. They're less common these days, but there are still modern examples.

Queequeg is probably right about the arrangement of lead on the staff.

My guess is that these mallets were something like a morning star/godentag. According to the Wikipedia article on morning stars these were basically arsenal weapons used to arm the people of a city in case of war. They were cheap, basically upgraded quarterstaves. Kind of like what we're talking about here.

I've never seen lead clading on a staff, but I have seen medieval pictures of travelers carrying weighted staffs, so it's not too unusual. Loading a staff with points, hidden blades, or hidden weights is a widespread phenomenon. On occasion, I've been sad that we can't legally do that in these modern days.

My 0.000002 cents,

F

Jim McDougall · 12th March 2009, 06:56 AM

Outstanding Fearn! I could not think of a term that better specified what type of mallet, and it does seem these were definitely associated with the morningstars or other terms for these mace type weapons.

I also hadnt thought of perpandicular lead cylinder, which makes sense in this type weapon, rather than the tool of hammer style I was thinking of. Well, all this talk of lead weighted bonking weapons gets right back to the shillelaghs on Queequegs other thread.

Vandoo, on the contrary, your 'ramblings' always make great sense, and it really is fun trying to figure out some of these really esoteric topics...great stuff!

All the best,
Jim

12th March 2009, 04:41 AM	#10
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Vandoo, Better keep hoping, 'cause I don't have an example. Well... Actually, if you google "carver's mallet," you'll see a modern example of a round-headed wooden mallet. They're less common these days, but there are still modern examples. Queequeg is probably right about the arrangement of lead on the staff. My guess is that these mallets were something like a morning star/godentag. According to the Wikipedia article on morning stars these were basically arsenal weapons used to arm the people of a city in case of war. They were cheap, basically upgraded quarterstaves. Kind of like what we're talking about here. I've never seen lead clading on a staff, but I have seen medieval pictures of travelers carrying weighted staffs, so it's not too unusual. Loading a staff with points, hidden blades, or hidden weights is a widespread phenomenon. On occasion, I've been sad that we can't legally do that in these modern days. My 0.000002 cents, F Last edited by fearn; 13th March 2009 at 03:03 AM. Reason: hoping doesn't have a p

10th March 2009, 09:07 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	Well, again Queequeg, you really come up with some esoterica! Barbara Tuchman's work is always outstanding, and its hard to imagine the detail she typically includes, let alone finding information that exceeds her research. As you have cited, the insurgents apparantly broke into the Hotel de Ville, taking 3000 lead mallets. The only other references I have found refer to the location as an 'arms depot' and talking the mallets. It seems sometimes semantics and terminology can be confounding in determining actuality in events and descriptions of things associated. I am not clear on what police organization was like in these times, nor the type of mallets that might have been used. It does seem clear these were utilitarian in nature rather than the 'martel de fer' or war hammer of the times, which had a spike type poll, and it is noted these mallets had cylindrical heads. In a description of the Battle of Agincourt some years later, John Keegan ("The Face of Battle") notes the use of lead mallets used for driving tent stakes, used to knock knights off horses. While this is obviously the standard instance of using whatever is at hand in the heat of the moment in battle, it seemed interesting that these implements were of lead, and seemingly a component of army ordnance. This more than anything, demonstrates the effective use of a utilitarian tool against armed opponents, as probably faced by the maillots. In iconic artwork, there is a painting titled "The Mystic Marraige of St. Catherine" associated in the predella in its display in Boston, depicting St. Margaret of Antioch striking the demon beelzebub with a large 'hammer or mallet', in one interpretation. Perhaps locating that artwork might give some idea, as it is of related period. It would seem that museums in France might have such implements in some display, and it would be interesting to discover more on this. It seems that this carries into your previous interest in the shillelagh, and also to the earlier discussions here on the history of the 'billy club' or truncheons used by police. Interesting topics, and hopefully we will hear more. All the best, Jim

10th March 2009, 11:18 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Queequeg and Jim , I too have tried to find out more....with little sucess Jim has beaten me with the references to Agincourt. The lead mallets used by the archers were also used to drive stakes into the ground, as a defence against horse charges. During the melee a number of archers used these mallets effectively against the French Knights (but we must consider the fact that the ground was extremely muddy and the knights had great difficulty in their mobility....this could have helped the 'effectiveness' of the use of the mallets.) I did find a reference about an iron mallet, used as a weapon (in France) but there were no further details ..... Regards David

10th March 2009, 11:44 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	Hi David, Its good to have you here on this! and thought about you as I read the notes on the Agincourt archers lead mallets (thinkin' outside the box ) and thier possible presence in an armoury, but wondered why these were the only weapons in an arms depot. Then again, why would they store 3000 mallets in a hotel? There was apparantly a lot of civil unrest concerning taxes ( hmmmm, I guess things havent changed much...where are the mallets?) One item I found noted weapons had been largely confiscated, so perhaps the mallets were considered more implements than weapons? In any case, it seems that the 'mallet' was simple in form, a hafted lead cylinder, and these simple rather mundane 'weapons' probably did not largely survive. I really dont know much on the organization of 'police' in medieval times, nor how they might have been armed, but this certainly has set the wheels in motion....as always.....curiouser and curiouser!!! All the best, Jim

11th March 2009, 02:35 AM	#5
Queequeg Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Detroit (New Mayapan) Posts: 96	I have to give you gentlemen kudos. I've posted this on three forums, and the only response I've gotten is here. You really know your weaponry!

11th March 2009, 05:20 AM	#7
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	VERY INTERESTING I HAD NOT HEARD OF THIS BEFORE. I WOULD ASSUME FROM WHAT IS IN THE INFORMATION OF YOUR FIRST POST. 1. LONG HANDLES PERHAPS LIKE A CROQUET MALLET, 2. CYLENDRICAL HEADS ONCE AGAIN LIKE A CROQUET MALLET BUT LEAD INSTEAD OF WOOD. THE THING THAT THROWS ME IS THEY ARE SAID TO HAVE BEEN THERE FOR USE BY POLICE. GENERALLY IN A SITUATION WHERE POLICE CONTROL A MOB THEY WOULD USE A LONG CLUB LIKE OBJECT PERHAPS WEIGHTED WITH LEAD IN THE END BUT NOT MADE LIKE A HAMMER. NOT ONLY WOULD SUCH A HAMMER BE LIKELY TO KILL A UNARMORED CITIZEN IT WOULD BE EASIER TO GET A GRIP BEHIND THAT HEAVY HEAD AND RENDER IT USLESS. SO A MORE STANDARD POLICE TYPE BILLY CLUB IS A POSSIBILITY BECAUSE IF THE OBJECT OF THE POLICE WAS TO KILL A SWORD OR PIKE WOULD BE MUCH BETTER. IF THEY WERE POLICE WEAPONS WHY WERN'T THEY IN THE POLICE STATION AND UNDER GAURD. THE OTHER POSSIBILTY IS THEY WERE SIMPLY MALLETS USED AS TOOLS TO DRIVE STAKES THAT WERE UNGARDED AND COULD BE USED AS WEAPONS BY THE CITIZENS AND WERE THE BEST THEY HAD READILY AVAILABLE IN LARGE SUPPLY. NOT TO CHANGE THE SUBJECT BUT THERE IS A MOVIE NOW OUT WHICH IS YET ANOTHER MODERN TWIST TO THE STORY OF BEOWOLF. WHY I MENTION IT HERE IS RON PERLMAN AS A VIKING CIRCIA 740 AD HAS SOME INTERESTING SCENES USING TWO WAR HAMMERS AT ONCE. IT LOOKS VERY FEARSOME AND FAST OF COURSE AND I WOULD HAVE ENJOYED A BIT MORE DETAIL AND TECKNIQUE BUT "THATS HOLLYWOOD" THE MOVIES NAME IS (OUTLANDER)

11th March 2009, 06:58 PM	#8
Queequeg Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Detroit (New Mayapan) Posts: 96	Actually, I've been wondering if that cylindrical head ran the other way, instead of perpendicularly; parallel and part of the handle. Weaponsmith, Sam Salvati, made this piece last year, which I'll use as my example. Original thread is here, in case the pics don't show up: http://sbgswordforum.proboards70.com...ay&thread=4649

11th March 2009, 08:56 PM	#9
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I HAD IN MIND IF IT WAS A POLICE WEAPON RATHER THAN A TOOL. PERHAPS YOUR PICTURES WILL BRING SOMEONE INTO THE DISCUSSION WHO HAS SEEN SOME ORIGINAL EXAMPLES. ONE CAN ONLY HOPE IT WOULD ALSO BE A WEAPON THAT COULD BE MADE IN PIECES UNDER THE WATCH OF OFFICIALS OF THOSE IN POWER AND THE COMPONENTS QUICKLY ASSEMBLED IN A SAFE AREA WITH LITTLE NEED FOR TOOLS OR NOISE. MATERIALS LEAD SHEET OR PIPE AND A WOOD FARM TOOL HANDLE AND SOME NAILS, TOOLS A HAMMER AND PERHAPS A SAW. SHAPEING LEAD WITH A HAMMER MAKES LITTLE NOISE AND CAN EVEN BE DONE WITH A WOODEN MALLET AND A NAIL EASILY DRIVES THRU LEAD. ANOTHER THOUGHT I HAD WAS THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN A VERY LARGE POLICE FORCE, MORE LIKE A MILITIA OR SMALL ARMY IF THE ATHORITYS KEPT THAT LARGE AN AMOUNT OF WEAPONS FOR THEIR FORCES. IF THAT WAS THE CASE WHY NOT SUPPLY THEM WITH BETTER WEAPONS, SPEARS, BOWS, SWORDS, SLINGS, ECT. REASONING FURTHER, PERHAPS THE GROUP ORGANIZING AGAINST THOSE IN POWER REASONED THAT THE ATHORITYS WOULD NOT BE WATCHING CLOSELY WHEN THEY MADE MALLETS WHICH WERE TOOLS. AND IF THE STOCKPILE WAS FOUND IT COULD BE EXPLAINED THAT THEY WERE A LARGE STOCK SOON TO BE SHIPPED AS DEMAND WAS HIGH OR THEY HAD A LARGE ORDER. IF THAT IS THE CASE IT WORKED AS THE ATHORITYS SURELY HAD SPIES WATCHING ANY PLACE THAT COULD FORGE WEAPONS OF ANY SORT AND SPEARS, SWORDS OR BOWS WOULD HAVE BROUGHT IMEDIATE RESPONCE. NOT VERY HELPFUL AND WITH NO PROOF AND JUST RAMBELING BUT CONJECTURE IS FUN AND SOMETIMES EVEN POINTS SOMEONE IN THE DIRECTION OF REAL FACTS AND ANSWERS.

12th March 2009, 06:56 AM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	Outstanding Fearn! I could not think of a term that better specified what type of mallet, and it does seem these were definitely associated with the morningstars or other terms for these mace type weapons. I also hadnt thought of perpandicular lead cylinder, which makes sense in this type weapon, rather than the tool of hammer style I was thinking of. Well, all this talk of lead weighted bonking weapons gets right back to the shillelaghs on Queequegs other thread. Vandoo, on the contrary, your 'ramblings' always make great sense, and it really is fun trying to figure out some of these really esoteric topics...great stuff! All the best, Jim