Barrel markings interpretation ?

Pukka Bundook · 26th March 2018, 02:27 PM

Good morning gentlemen,
I have a mystery on my hands; It is an early double -barreled flintlock sporting gun, barrels marked Luis Santos, Locks by Labarde, Paris, and apparently re-stocked in England in the early 19th century!

Under the breech it has these stampings , attached.
I can not figure out what this says or means. Maybe the "staine" is "spaine"?
But what the first part is I do not know. Looks a bit like "Lesson " in French! any help most appreciated!!

Richard.

fernando · 26th March 2018, 05:09 PM

Hi Richard,
Labarde ? certainly Laborde, instead

.
Those letterings under the barrel may (should) not be words; the upper set has too many consonants in a row... and not necessarily original to the barrel making.
You surely have a riddle there

.

fernando · 26th March 2018, 06:01 PM

On the other hand, the word "Leconois" exists in French; apparently an old surname !

DaleH · 26th March 2018, 06:52 PM

http://www.shotguns.se/html/spain.html

... but although Spanish proof marks go back to 1600s, I didn’t see anything ...

DaleH · 26th March 2018, 06:57 PM

If we determine that ‘leconois’ is lesson, could this be an apprentice’s final build for acceptance into the guild? That may be why those other marks are there, perhaps denoting it was built/proofed under the oversight of the Master?

However, those “,” marks might indeed be commas and recall that Europsnuses them as commas between numbers - so perhaps those final marks are the bore sizes?

Pukka Bundook · 26th March 2018, 07:12 PM

Dear Fernando,

Of course you are right. Laborde it is. Getting things wrong is the only way I get them at the moment!

Thank you for the old French Surname. This is a good start.

Much to puzzle over on this piece, but thank you for your help my friend.

Richard.

M ELEY · 26th March 2018, 11:33 PM

Welcome to the Forum, DaleH. Appreciate your input and theories on this intriguing piece!

Pukka Bundook · 27th March 2018, 04:53 AM

Gents, there is much to ponder over on this one.

Thanks for all the thoughts.
DaleH. Welcome, glad to see you can now post!

The marks on the barrel are those of Luis Santos, and whether they are correct or a bit later forgeries I do not know. Many Were forged with famous Spanish barrel -maker marks applied, and these were difficult to tell apart from the real ones even in the 18th century.
I did have a short thread about the Santos stamps some time ago, and they Do appear correct..
The problem with this is that Luis died in 1721, so if his work, they are Extremely early for a set of double barrels. I Think Keith Neal had seen some from 1723 or so, but these would have to be 1721.

The locks are by Laborde, (Thank you Fernando!) and Stockel has him working in Paris from 1745 to 17 60.
Then, we have later stocking up apparently in the UK, in the early 19th century, and have an Earl's coronet on the wrist.
So what do we have?
I will attach more photos tomorrow.

Thank you all for looking!

Richard.

fernando · 27th March 2018, 02:48 PM

Welcome to the Forum, Dale

,
I notice that you posted a link to listings of gunmakers marks of 'modern times' (XX century) and Richard's example dates back to a couple centuries before that, respective marks being found in different sources.
I am not a French speaker but, i would not get it how 'leconois', assuming this is the exact word engraved, would give a derivation to 'lesson' (in french leçon) or that it would be relative to apprentice (in french aprentis).
On the other hand, assuming these inscriptions are indeed French, their relation with the maker of this double barrel would not be coherent if such barrel is indeed Spanish, but that is something that remains to be established, as admitted by Richard.

fernando · 27th March 2018, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

... The marks on the barrel are those of Luis Santos, and whether they are correct or a bit later forgeries I do not know. Many Were forged with famous Spanish barrel -maker marks applied, and these were difficult to tell apart from the real ones even in the 18th century.
I did have a short thread about the Santos stamps some time ago, and they Do appear correct....

Loking at various examples shown and described in the Catalogue of the Real Armeria, we see consistency in a little detail; the L. for Luis is followed by a minuscle s. Can you check whether the digit after the L in your barrels mark is a dot (as i see it) or a s ? Maybe this could help verify the mark authenticity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

... The problem with this is that Luis died in 1721, so if his work, they are Extremely early for a set of double barrels. I Think Keith Neal had seen some from 1723 or so, but these would have to be 1721...

Good reasoning, Richard. Resulting in that your gun, having a French lock, would be consistent with having late XVIII century barrels of French origin, the famous Spanish master marks being a "marketing" operation.

Quoting two paragraphs in this link:
http://www.thefield.co.uk/shooting/h...shooting-26590.

"While the flintlock and trigger-to-bang time continually improved, the next major innovation was the addition of a second barrel. The earliest examples of guns with barrels held together by soldering rather than the stock were French side-by-sides of the 1730s."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

...Then, we have later stocking up apparently in the UK, in the early 19th century, and have an Earl's coronet on the wrist...

And why do think of this as a fact, Richard; the coronet style, or the stock shape ?

.

Pukka Bundook · 27th March 2018, 04:25 PM

Fernando my friend, You are a very useful chap!
Thank you for this reply.
On these stampings, the L for Luis is followed by a miniscule Dot, so apparently Not the real deal. This has been driving me a little nuts, so I am very pleased you have shared this with me. :-)

The barrels are still early but may well have been assembled into a gun by Laborde. They are apparently brazed together, with a top rib, and are beautiful work. (Even if not Santos!)
Your quote from "The Field" would validate the time-span as well.

If Laborde work, I think it is fairly early work of this maker, as the manner of attaching the barrels to the breech is not a standard procedure. Please see pictures.
This is not the usual hooked breech we normally see, the barrels and false breech must be lifted from the stock as a unit.

My pictures of the stock are too large, so will reduce them and post later.

The stock is newer, and has an "English" look about it. V high quality walnut. It seems the original Laborde furniture was fitted to this stock.

I value your thoughts on this !

Richard.

fernando · 27th March 2018, 07:01 PM

Definitely the barrels are French. The lettering after Leconois is a word: L'aîné, meaning "the oldest son". It is known that Laborde (1745-1760) was often named as Le Jeune (the Young), which suggests a Laborde father (Bordeaux 1730 ?). However in the case of your barrels i would not discard the possibility that the epithet goes for the "oldest son" of such Leconois, the name of a less kown (so far) barrel smith; you know, Laborde being a whole pistol maker but using contracted barrel smiths for shotguns ?. Besides, one finds it hard to see Laborde forgering his guns with Spanish marks ... or has a Laborde lock been implanted in the dicussed shotgun ?

.
Just for the fun, look at this hunting pistol by Laborde a Paris.

(Courtesy Galeriedemars)
.

Pukka Bundook · 27th March 2018, 08:01 PM

Again, a Very helpful reply Fernando!

I believe you are right; That Laborde did not make the barrels. Most gunsmiths bought in their barrels and I see this as most likely in this case.
If Spanish barrels were selling at a premium, as indeed they were, I do not suppose he had any great worries regarding supplying what was in demand. :-)
That is a very beautiful pistol you show!

Very nice work. The cocks are very interesting, as we think of them as later than Laborde was working. The trigger-guard is the same 'pillar ' type as on the gun in the opening post. Not exact, but same style.
I will attach further photos as soon as possible.

Kind regards,
Richard.

Edited to add pictures.

Pukka Bundook · 28th March 2018, 03:18 AM

Please pardon the double post, but Fernando,

In this thread (see below)

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=227443

You showed L Santos marks in Lavin, (with miniscule S) and also L Santos in Isidro Soler's work, where we see the dot and no little 's'.

So where does this leave us my friend?

Yes, you said in that post that makers did not always use the same punzon,
so is there any way to say if the marks on these barrels are fake or genuine?

Kind regards,
Richard.

fernando · 28th March 2018, 11:34 AM

I am sorry Richard, that my words made you realize that it was a decisive diagnosis, whereas my approach was more on the 'food for thought' basis.
Still in the mentioned previous thread i submitted that marks depicted by Soler and Lavin are drawings of punzones whereas all those three in the Armeria Catalogue are images of the actual thing.
On the other hand, being the discussed barrels of Spanish origin, why the heck should some Frenchy's 'oldest son' punched that inscription underneath ?
Again something (only) to think about, nothing ultimate.
And remember my technical knowledge of (shot)guns is nihil; just trying to stick my nose on marks riddles

.

Pukka Bundook · 28th March 2018, 02:36 PM

Indeed Fernando!

We come full circle and wonder why French marks.

In "An Essay On Shooting" (1797) we read that fake marks were common and very hard to tell from the real thing, so it appears that the faked marks were nearly perfect. This takes me back to the conclusion that the marks on these barrels are fakes.
The big trouble with this conclusion, is I must then wonder why make a perfect forged mark, ....then give the game away with French writing!?!

Sometimes things just do not make sense.
It's like forging perfect banknotes, then putting Mickey Mouse on one corner...

I like the gun very much, and a bit of mystery never hurt.

Thank you my good friend, for all your help on this.

Richard,

fernando · 28th March 2018, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

... The big trouble with this conclusion, is I must then wonder why make a perfect forged mark, ....then give the game away with French writing!?! ...

Just think of it as being genuine Spanish barrels for exports, receiving a French inspection countermark at arrival

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

... Sometimes things just do not make sense.
It's like forging perfect banknotes, then putting Mickey Mouse on one corner...

It does make sense when you think of Disneyland currency

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

... I like the gun very much, and a bit of mystery never hurt...

Absolutely !

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

...Thank you my good friend, for all your help on this...

Always at your disposal

.

Pukka Bundook · 28th March 2018, 04:49 PM

Fernando,

To quote you;
"Just think of it as being genuine Spanish barrels for exports, receiving a French inspection countermark at arrival ".

This may be Very close to the truth!

Richard.

26th March 2018, 02:27 PM	#1
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Barrel markings interpretation ? Good morning gentlemen, I have a mystery on my hands; It is an early double -barreled flintlock sporting gun, barrels marked Luis Santos, Locks by Labarde, Paris, and apparently re-stocked in England in the early 19th century! Under the breech it has these stampings , attached. I can not figure out what this says or means. Maybe the "staine" is "spaine"? But what the first part is I do not know. Looks a bit like "Lesson " in French! any help most appreciated!! Richard. Attached Images

27th March 2018, 04:25 PM	#11
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Fernando my friend, You are a very useful chap! Thank you for this reply. On these stampings, the L for Luis is followed by a miniscule Dot, so apparently Not the real deal. This has been driving me a little nuts, so I am very pleased you have shared this with me. :-) The barrels are still early but may well have been assembled into a gun by Laborde. They are apparently brazed together, with a top rib, and are beautiful work. (Even if not Santos!) Your quote from "The Field" would validate the time-span as well. If Laborde work, I think it is fairly early work of this maker, as the manner of attaching the barrels to the breech is not a standard procedure. Please see pictures. This is not the usual hooked breech we normally see, the barrels and false breech must be lifted from the stock as a unit. My pictures of the stock are too large, so will reduce them and post later. The stock is newer, and has an "English" look about it. V high quality walnut. It seems the original Laborde furniture was fitted to this stock. I value your thoughts on this ! Richard. Attached Images

27th March 2018, 07:01 PM	#12
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Definitely the barrels are French. The lettering after Leconois is a word: L'aîné, meaning "the oldest son". It is known that Laborde (1745-1760) was often named as Le Jeune (the Young), which suggests a Laborde father (Bordeaux 1730 ?). However in the case of your barrels i would not discard the possibility that the epithet goes for the "oldest son" of such Leconois, the name of a less kown (so far) barrel smith; you know, Laborde being a whole pistol maker but using contracted barrel smiths for shotguns ?. Besides, one finds it hard to see Laborde forgering his guns with Spanish marks ... or has a Laborde lock been implanted in the dicussed shotgun ? . Just for the fun, look at this hunting pistol by Laborde a Paris. (Courtesy Galeriedemars) . Attached Images

27th March 2018, 08:01 PM	#13
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Again, a Very helpful reply Fernando! I believe you are right; That Laborde did not make the barrels. Most gunsmiths bought in their barrels and I see this as most likely in this case. If Spanish barrels were selling at a premium, as indeed they were, I do not suppose he had any great worries regarding supplying what was in demand. :-) That is a very beautiful pistol you show! Very nice work. The cocks are very interesting, as we think of them as later than Laborde was working. The trigger-guard is the same 'pillar ' type as on the gun in the opening post. Not exact, but same style. I will attach further photos as soon as possible. Kind regards, Richard. Edited to add pictures. Attached Images Last edited by Pukka Bundook; 27th March 2018 at 08:22 PM.

26th March 2018, 05:09 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Richard, Labarde ? certainly Laborde, instead . Those letterings under the barrel may (should) not be words; the upper set has too many consonants in a row... and not necessarily original to the barrel making. You surely have a riddle there .

26th March 2018, 06:01 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	On the other hand, the word "Leconois" exists in French; apparently an old surname !

26th March 2018, 06:52 PM	#4
DaleH Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Location: near Boston - USA Posts: 11	http://www.shotguns.se/html/spain.html ... but although Spanish proof marks go back to 1600s, I didn’t see anything ...

26th March 2018, 06:57 PM	#5
DaleH Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Location: near Boston - USA Posts: 11	If we determine that ‘leconois’ is lesson, could this be an apprentice’s final build for acceptance into the guild? That may be why those other marks are there, perhaps denoting it was built/proofed under the oversight of the Master? However, those “,” marks might indeed be commas and recall that Europsnuses them as commas between numbers - so perhaps those final marks are the bore sizes?

26th March 2018, 07:12 PM	#6
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Dear Fernando, Of course you are right. Laborde it is. Getting things wrong is the only way I get them at the moment! Thank you for the old French Surname. This is a good start. Much to puzzle over on this piece, but thank you for your help my friend. Richard.

26th March 2018, 11:33 PM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,093	Welcome to the Forum, DaleH. Appreciate your input and theories on this intriguing piece!

27th March 2018, 04:53 AM	#8
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Gents, there is much to ponder over on this one. Thanks for all the thoughts. DaleH. Welcome, glad to see you can now post! The marks on the barrel are those of Luis Santos, and whether they are correct or a bit later forgeries I do not know. Many Were forged with famous Spanish barrel -maker marks applied, and these were difficult to tell apart from the real ones even in the 18th century. I did have a short thread about the Santos stamps some time ago, and they Do appear correct.. The problem with this is that Luis died in 1721, so if his work, they are Extremely early for a set of double barrels. I Think Keith Neal had seen some from 1723 or so, but these would have to be 1721. The locks are by Laborde, (Thank you Fernando!) and Stockel has him working in Paris from 1745 to 17 60. Then, we have later stocking up apparently in the UK, in the early 19th century, and have an Earl's coronet on the wrist. So what do we have? I will attach more photos tomorrow. Thank you all for looking! Richard.

27th March 2018, 02:48 PM	#9
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Welcome to the Forum, Dale , I notice that you posted a link to listings of gunmakers marks of 'modern times' (XX century) and Richard's example dates back to a couple centuries before that, respective marks being found in different sources. I am not a French speaker but, i would not get it how 'leconois', assuming this is the exact word engraved, would give a derivation to 'lesson' (in french leçon) or that it would be relative to apprentice (in french aprentis). On the other hand, assuming these inscriptions are indeed French, their relation with the maker of this double barrel would not be coherent if such barrel is indeed Spanish, but that is something that remains to be established, as admitted by Richard.

28th March 2018, 03:18 AM	#14
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Please pardon the double post, but Fernando, In this thread (see below) http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=227443 You showed L Santos marks in Lavin, (with miniscule S) and also L Santos in Isidro Soler's work, where we see the dot and no little 's'. So where does this leave us my friend? Yes, you said in that post that makers did not always use the same punzon, so is there any way to say if the marks on these barrels are fake or genuine? Kind regards, Richard.

28th March 2018, 11:34 AM	#15
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I am sorry Richard, that my words made you realize that it was a decisive diagnosis, whereas my approach was more on the 'food for thought' basis. Still in the mentioned previous thread i submitted that marks depicted by Soler and Lavin are drawings of punzones whereas all those three in the Armeria Catalogue are images of the actual thing. On the other hand, being the discussed barrels of Spanish origin, why the heck should some Frenchy's 'oldest son' punched that inscription underneath ? Again something (only) to think about, nothing ultimate. And remember my technical knowledge of (shot)guns is nihil; just trying to stick my nose on marks riddles .

28th March 2018, 02:36 PM	#16
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Indeed Fernando! We come full circle and wonder why French marks. In "An Essay On Shooting" (1797) we read that fake marks were common and very hard to tell from the real thing, so it appears that the faked marks were nearly perfect. This takes me back to the conclusion that the marks on these barrels are fakes. The big trouble with this conclusion, is I must then wonder why make a perfect forged mark, ....then give the game away with French writing!?! Sometimes things just do not make sense. It's like forging perfect banknotes, then putting Mickey Mouse on one corner... I like the gun very much, and a bit of mystery never hurt. Thank you my good friend, for all your help on this. Richard,

28th March 2018, 04:49 PM	#18
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Fernando, To quote you; "Just think of it as being genuine Spanish barrels for exports, receiving a French inspection countermark at arrival ". This may be Very close to the truth! Richard.