I respect the rules of the forum

Marcus · 27th July 2016, 02:02 AM

But I still wish that sometimes I could get comments before I hit the “buy it now” button.

“ANTIQUE old indian indo persian battle axe zaghnal”

yes, it is missing the elephant.

Marcus · 27th July 2016, 02:05 AM

here they are

A.alnakkas · 27th July 2016, 02:43 AM

I'd just contact someone with expertise directly before hitting the buy it now button :-)

Jim McDougall · 27th July 2016, 11:35 PM

Hi Marcus, I sincerely hope this item is not presently in auction!!!
However, your point is well taken.
While obviously we are not to discuss such items here openly on these pages BEFORE the item closes, there is nothing to preclude you contacting specialized members privately, which is why we have the PM function.

At the same time, this entire forum is a huge storehouse of knowledge and archived data. If you are interested in a key item with which you are not entirely familiar....for example 'zaghnal'......at the top of the page , use the SEARCH feature and simply enter the term.

It is astounding how many discussions will come up which attend to these very topics. If your queries fall outside the scope, which would be unusual I would expect, contact us privately. I personally enjoy queries as they are opportunities to learn.

I am most grateful for members here who continue to seek out and acquire interesting arms, especially as they are shared here. We all learn together, thanks to the risks and diligence of our collector/members.

Just remember CAVEAT EMPTOR, and knowledge is the most powerful weapon.

The rules in place are there for reasons, most profoundly to protect you and the forum at large from troublesome and most threatening legal issues, which though not always in occurrence, can have most unfortunate consequences.

Therefore, we ask you and everyone here to join with us in protecting the security of our pages and membership by adhering to our rules, and when in doubt, just ask. We're always ready to help. OK?

Thanks Marcus !!! Well placed question and hope this will explain.

All the best
Jim

Marcus · 27th July 2016, 11:49 PM

As I said in the title, I respect the rules. It is shipping to me. It is not an active auction. I thought I made that clear. In any case I would appreciate comments.

trajan · 28th July 2016, 05:25 AM

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3094

here is an intact one sold from oriental arms--nearly identical.

Tim Simmons · 28th July 2016, 07:08 AM

If it is worth the expense making a replcement that would be the same in all ways would be quite easy.

estcrh · 28th July 2016, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus

But I still wish that sometimes I could get comments before I hit the “buy it now” button.

I agree with you but we have to work with what we have.

I do not think anyone can pin down when your zaghnal was made, it is authentic as far as I can see. The ones I have seen are more of a war pick / war hammer than a cutting weapon, although there are exceptions.

Here is a link to some more zaghnal images and one that I have, it would not cut anything but the weight is focused on the point, it would definately pierce a skull etc.

https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiq...uj-and-flails/

Gavin Nugent · 28th July 2016, 11:18 AM

Have you checked for a knife attached to the pommel, there often are....try to unscrew it.

Gavin

Jim McDougall · 28th July 2016, 05:23 PM

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=zaghnal

My apologies Marcus, I misunderstood your comments and did not realize they were rhetorical.

As the title was directed at forum rules, I wanted to address the matter in a general sense concerning these situations, and meant the references regarding search features etc. to offer assistance to benefit other readers here who are not quite as familiar with our rules and scope.

You are a seasoned contributor here, and of course I know you are quite familiar with search features etc.

Some good entries so far, and I wanted to add the link above to a 2009 discussion which was remarkably comprehensive on these. It also well illustrates, to those reading, just how much data is within our archives!

What I drew from this discussion notes that these 'zaghnal' were it seems well known with the Rajputs, and are known as a weapon form early, in fact shown in the Ain I Akbari (as noted in "Islamic Arms and Armor of Mughal India", Dr. S. Haider, Lahore, 1991; p.235 and plate #30, xii, p24).
It seems they were primarily an armour breaking weapon, against helmets and armor as there are usually no cutting edges, just reinforced point.

The reference to the elephant I imagine goes to another hafted weapon of these regions, the bhuj, which is essentially a hafted knife and typically has an elephant head at the base of the blade.

There are references to these hafted weapons (known collectively as 'dab' in Rajasthan) being used in hamstringing, however that purpose would most likely be to the bhuj rather than the armor piercing zaghnol.

In comments it is noted that examples similar to that posted here by Marcus are most probably 19th to early 20th c. Traditional weapons were still used by cavalry in India into the 1930s.

Good tip by Gav, see if there is a knife in the handle. Also, these 19th-20th examples are typically assembled by screw systems.

Marcus · 28th July 2016, 06:04 PM

Looking at examples previously sold on Oriental arms 3 out of 6 have an elephant on the back side of the spike. This piece has a peg that looks as though there was once something there. The seller made reference to a missing elephant. I have a friend who might cast me a replacement. I look forward to receiving the item in a few days. I suspect the vendor would have checked for a dagger. I can confirm that.

Jim McDougall · 28th July 2016, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus

Looking at examples previously sold on Oriental arms 3 out of 6 have an elephant on the back side of the spike. This piece has a peg that looks as though there was once something there. The seller made reference to a missing elephant. I have a friend who might cast me a replacement. I look forward to receiving the item in a few days. I suspect the vendor would have checked for a dagger. I can confirm that.

Good note Marcus, and in reviewing a number of these zaghnal, I did notice that many did have an elephant at the base, so I see what you mean.
What is curious is that the bhuj, which is like a dagger with an extremely long handle becoming a haft, these invariably have the elephant head at the junction of blade and haft. This led to the vernacular term 'elephant knife' used for them.
It begs the question of the relationship between these hafted weapons and more on the significance of the elephant symbolically.

27th July 2016, 02:02 AM	#1
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	I respect the rules of the forum But I still wish that sometimes I could get comments before I hit the “buy it now” button. “ANTIQUE old indian indo persian battle axe zaghnal” yes, it is missing the elephant.

27th July 2016, 02:05 AM	#2
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	forgot to upload the eBay pictures here they are Attached Images

27th July 2016, 11:49 PM	#5
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	not to worry As I said in the title, I respect the rules. It is shipping to me. It is not an active auction. I thought I made that clear. In any case I would appreciate comments.

28th July 2016, 05:23 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=zaghnal My apologies Marcus, I misunderstood your comments and did not realize they were rhetorical. As the title was directed at forum rules, I wanted to address the matter in a general sense concerning these situations, and meant the references regarding search features etc. to offer assistance to benefit other readers here who are not quite as familiar with our rules and scope. You are a seasoned contributor here, and of course I know you are quite familiar with search features etc. Some good entries so far, and I wanted to add the link above to a 2009 discussion which was remarkably comprehensive on these. It also well illustrates, to those reading, just how much data is within our archives! What I drew from this discussion notes that these 'zaghnal' were it seems well known with the Rajputs, and are known as a weapon form early, in fact shown in the Ain I Akbari (as noted in "Islamic Arms and Armor of Mughal India", Dr. S. Haider, Lahore, 1991; p.235 and plate #30, xii, p24). It seems they were primarily an armour breaking weapon, against helmets and armor as there are usually no cutting edges, just reinforced point. The reference to the elephant I imagine goes to another hafted weapon of these regions, the bhuj, which is essentially a hafted knife and typically has an elephant head at the base of the blade. There are references to these hafted weapons (known collectively as 'dab' in Rajasthan) being used in hamstringing, however that purpose would most likely be to the bhuj rather than the armor piercing zaghnol. In comments it is noted that examples similar to that posted here by Marcus are most probably 19th to early 20th c. Traditional weapons were still used by cavalry in India into the 1930s. Good tip by Gav, see if there is a knife in the handle. Also, these 19th-20th examples are typically assembled by screw systems. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 28th July 2016 at 05:55 PM.

28th July 2016, 06:04 PM	#11
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	elephants Looking at examples previously sold on Oriental arms 3 out of 6 have an elephant on the back side of the spike. This piece has a peg that looks as though there was once something there. The seller made reference to a missing elephant. I have a friend who might cast me a replacement. I look forward to receiving the item in a few days. I suspect the vendor would have checked for a dagger. I can confirm that.

27th July 2016, 02:43 AM	#3
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	I'd just contact someone with expertise directly before hitting the buy it now button :-)

27th July 2016, 11:35 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Marcus, I sincerely hope this item is not presently in auction!!! However, your point is well taken. While obviously we are not to discuss such items here openly on these pages BEFORE the item closes, there is nothing to preclude you contacting specialized members privately, which is why we have the PM function. At the same time, this entire forum is a huge storehouse of knowledge and archived data. If you are interested in a key item with which you are not entirely familiar....for example 'zaghnal'......at the top of the page , use the SEARCH feature and simply enter the term. It is astounding how many discussions will come up which attend to these very topics. If your queries fall outside the scope, which would be unusual I would expect, contact us privately. I personally enjoy queries as they are opportunities to learn. I am most grateful for members here who continue to seek out and acquire interesting arms, especially as they are shared here. We all learn together, thanks to the risks and diligence of our collector/members. Just remember CAVEAT EMPTOR, and knowledge is the most powerful weapon. The rules in place are there for reasons, most profoundly to protect you and the forum at large from troublesome and most threatening legal issues, which though not always in occurrence, can have most unfortunate consequences. Therefore, we ask you and everyone here to join with us in protecting the security of our pages and membership by adhering to our rules, and when in doubt, just ask. We're always ready to help. OK? Thanks Marcus !!! Well placed question and hope this will explain. All the best Jim

28th July 2016, 05:25 AM	#6
trajan Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 68	http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3094 here is an intact one sold from oriental arms--nearly identical.

28th July 2016, 07:08 AM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	If it is worth the expense making a replcement that would be the same in all ways would be quite easy.

28th July 2016, 11:18 AM	#9
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Have you checked for a knife attached to the pommel, there often are....try to unscrew it. Gavin