Hartford Antique Arms Show

Dmitry · 11th October 2010, 03:27 AM

I've been attending this show [considered by many the second best in the US, after Baltimore] for the last 3 years.
A short and biased synopsis of last weekend's show -
Prices have definitely gone down, but so has the scope of the items offered. European pre-1800 edged weapons of quality were few and far in between. I did see two good English-style 17th c. rapiers that I wouldn't have minded having in my collection, but the prices were out of my reach. Also, a wonderful silver-hilted small-sword with a porcelain grip [perhaps from Strasbourg], which, too, was priced very high.
A note on the importance of getting out there, and having a look and feel of things for the sake of one's experience [and pocketbook] - observing the items on offer from a known American dealer, specializing in 16th-18th c. edged weapons, showed a stark difference between the small photos on his website to what the pieces looked like en vivo - some with artificial patina, in some cases reassembled, and in others - married.

As far as the Islamic weapons are concerned, there appeared to be a good variety, but this is not my area of collecting. Ethnographic weapons were also present in good numbers, but again, this is a terra incognita for me.
European pre-1800 firearms were present in some variety, and ranged from mediocre to superb.
I ended up not buying any weapons, but bought three books, one of which was a rare title, and a particularly important purchase for me -
Lionello Boccia - L'ARMERIA DEL MUSEO CIVICO MEDIEVALE DI BOLOGNA.

As always, it was good fun to walk around, handle things, and talk with a few knowledgeable colleagues.

Forgot to add - a humbling experience was seeing someone pay a dealer that I know $5500 for a German Mauser butcher bayonet ca.1900, just because of the regimental abbreviation, which indicated that it was used by a German Colonial unit which took part in the Boxer Rebellion. A bayonet, like any other butcher, which usually go for, perhaps, $200-300...
Bayonet collectors are a bizarre group of people. This goes beyond collecting...

Lee · 11th October 2010, 11:31 AM

Hi Dmitry - I was there as well on Saturday and like you I somehow managed to make it through the show without buying any more arms and armour. Overall, it is a very nicely staged show and I prefer the ambiance here to that at Baltimore, though the venue just does not have adequate parking.

To me, prices seemed high. My first attendance was two years ago - or about 2 weeks into the potential chasm of the financial crisis - and then, last year and this last weekend, I kept asking myself if the dealers were really being realistic about the economy. With gray hairs come too many memories of what things cost a few decades ago, so as I went through pricing things, my shock and awe was more at just how high prices were compared with what I thought such things could cost. (This is the primary reason I refuse to do appraisals when asked.) So, while there were a number of items of potential interest in the room, asking the price usually ended that interest with a quick thud. But to be honest, nothing really set my heart to racing and put my avarice on edge, so I remained in a rational mode throughout. (Of late, I will deliberately take down a few of my best and favorite things and pore over them the night before I head out to a show in order to really screw up my collector's lust calibration.)

I also had some enjoyable talks with knowledgeable people and to the extent that these discussions turned to the market, the usual observation was - as expected - that the best things are still getting pricier while the more mundane are slumping a bit. Indeed, for those of us still holding Uncle Milton in reverence, it is only a matter of time until there will have to be an inflationary surge in response to what the government has done in order to moderate the disaster. So I think prices may also be being held up by a pervading thinking that it is better to have your assets in tangibles than locking in to the ridiculously low interest rates on offer for savings just now.

When I go to a big quality show I am amazed at just how much stuff there is, even if less than 1% fits my current interests. It seems there are so many nice old early American swords and old muskets and rifles and powder horns. And plenty of merchandise to keep several auctions going. A universe so much larger than I remember from my earlier collecting days. I write it off to my ignorance from having grown up in middle America far from a coast. But I also worry about some of the scary stuff in Philip K. Dick's The Man in the High Castle - not the huge big stuff that was supposed to be scary in that book, by the way, by instead trivial side plot setup collector's world scary.

$5,500! - one ought to be able to get a decent Viking sword for that! Which brings to mind Ewart Oakeshott, who remembered and recounted prices for genuine medieval swords in an ordinary working man's discretionary reach.

Matchlock · 11th October 2010, 02:01 PM

Hi Lee,

It was interesting to read Dmitry's and your reports.

A decent and original Viking sword would fetch far more than 20,000 euro in Europe.

Best,
Michael

Lee · 11th October 2010, 08:43 PM

Michael - thanks for the update; I have really drifted out of touch! I suppose cognitively I do realize prices are way up - and I can blame only myself for one truckload of salt in that well - but, now being priced well out of the market, those early adventures still dominate my emotional memory of when, wherever I found them, purchases of Viking Age swords were denominated in small banded bundles of 100 Deutsche Mark notes. It is hard to believe that twenty-five years ago - even 15 - a good solid excavated but complete though unadorned genuine Viking Age sword was something of a hard sell for a dealer to dispose of. The adjective starting with 'e' was the hurdle for the dealer then; the trick now for the collector is to find something on offer that matches that string of adjectives, especially the one starting with 'g'...

If my previous post incited any interest in Philip K. Dick, one may find the relevant passage in Man in the High Castle on Google docs; follow the link and then search down for the term "American artifacts".

Matchlock · 11th October 2010, 08:58 PM

Quite right, Lee,

I have noticed the same development over here, though excavated medieval - not Viking - sword finds have dropped a lot in price since so many Hungarian fakes started to flood the market some 5-8 years ago. They are so incredibly well 'aged', including the various conglomerates one would expect, that I would not touch one any more. And lots of people feel like that.

Best,
Michael

Dmitry · 12th October 2010, 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

If my previous post incited any interest in Philip K. Dick, one may find the relevant passage in Man in the High Castle on Google docs; follow the link and then search down for the term "American artifacts".

Interesting. I've browsed the passages dealing with the American artifacts, perhaps I will read the whole book.

Truth be told, I've examined a score of 'non-kosher' swords at the show, some made up from period parts, believable, others - laughable.
Authenticity has a way of 'telling' the story, when you hold it in your hand.

Ditto on Hartford vs. Baltimore. Timonium Fairgrounds has poor lighting, and a very poor layout.

Lee · 12th October 2010, 06:27 PM

Do beware, Man in the High Castle is classic Philip K. Dick! I find the cited passages amazingly contemporary and insightful. Perhaps there was a burst of forgeries at the time as this came out towards the start of the U.S. Civil War Centennial in 1962.

Back to modern reality; as a necessity I scan these large shows fairly quickly (ok, perhaps 4 hours does not qualify as quickly) sometimes taking an aisle at full walking speed. In this mode I am drinking in the overall type of the items - i.e. martial long-arm, another, another - but not pausing long enough to look at any marking or other detail. One criterion only - is this what I am looking for today? No? - then not another glance. The sheer quantities of personally uninspected arms and armour must put me in this existential state of mind where I start quoting Philip K. Dick. Oh! to have a set of goggles that would display one color of glow around an out-and-out forgery, with another tint for fakes and a contrasting color for honest repairs and restorations. There were a couple of swords 'in medieval style' on offer above table at Hartford; I did not ask to take them down or even examine them closely, as a quick scan did not inspire much confidence for me in their authenticity.

I was burnt a couple of times when the eastern European fakes started coming out. The first of these, bought on an Internet auction, is pictured below. I have kept it as a reminder, hanging it impressively on a wall. As such things go this is a very proficient piece of work. It fooled me for a while, along with those I showed it to. It has a decent feel in the hand (tip - I have found this criterion to only be valid in the negative and disqualifying sense) and also has 'grain' though, in retrospect, perhaps a bit more of the wrought iron variety. As it ages, the applied conglomerates have started letting loose in sheets as the aging treatment continues to slowly react with the underlying metal.

Matchlock · 12th October 2010, 06:55 PM

Thank you so much, Lee,

For posting this characteristic sample.

This is exactly what I described - though it sounds totally unbelievable at first (and sadly second) glance and feels right when handled, after a while the conglomerates start coming off.

These fakes are both highly criminal and dangerous. I was told that the Hungarians 'damage' and then bury them in dung heaps for months. The dealers pay them about 300 USD a piece. Imagine!

Your sword, of course, is in 12th c. knightly style. What a pity ...

Best,
Michael

11th October 2010, 03:27 AM	#1
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Hartford Antique Arms Show I've been attending this show [considered by many the second best in the US, after Baltimore] for the last 3 years. A short and biased synopsis of last weekend's show - Prices have definitely gone down, but so has the scope of the items offered. European pre-1800 edged weapons of quality were few and far in between. I did see two good English-style 17th c. rapiers that I wouldn't have minded having in my collection, but the prices were out of my reach. Also, a wonderful silver-hilted small-sword with a porcelain grip [perhaps from Strasbourg], which, too, was priced very high. A note on the importance of getting out there, and having a look and feel of things for the sake of one's experience [and pocketbook] - observing the items on offer from a known American dealer, specializing in 16th-18th c. edged weapons, showed a stark difference between the small photos on his website to what the pieces looked like en vivo - some with artificial patina, in some cases reassembled, and in others - married. As far as the Islamic weapons are concerned, there appeared to be a good variety, but this is not my area of collecting. Ethnographic weapons were also present in good numbers, but again, this is a terra incognita for me. European pre-1800 firearms were present in some variety, and ranged from mediocre to superb. I ended up not buying any weapons, but bought three books, one of which was a rare title, and a particularly important purchase for me - Lionello Boccia - L'ARMERIA DEL MUSEO CIVICO MEDIEVALE DI BOLOGNA. As always, it was good fun to walk around, handle things, and talk with a few knowledgeable colleagues. Forgot to add - a humbling experience was seeing someone pay a dealer that I know $5500 for a German Mauser butcher bayonet ca.1900, just because of the regimental abbreviation, which indicated that it was used by a German Colonial unit which took part in the Boxer Rebellion. A bayonet, like any other butcher, which usually go for, perhaps, $200-300... Bayonet collectors are a bizarre group of people. This goes beyond collecting... Last edited by Dmitry; 11th October 2010 at 05:28 AM.

11th October 2010, 11:31 AM	#2
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 909	Also there Hi Dmitry - I was there as well on Saturday and like you I somehow managed to make it through the show without buying any more arms and armour. Overall, it is a very nicely staged show and I prefer the ambiance here to that at Baltimore, though the venue just does not have adequate parking. To me, prices seemed high. My first attendance was two years ago - or about 2 weeks into the potential chasm of the financial crisis - and then, last year and this last weekend, I kept asking myself if the dealers were really being realistic about the economy. With gray hairs come too many memories of what things cost a few decades ago, so as I went through pricing things, my shock and awe was more at just how high prices were compared with what I thought such things could cost. (This is the primary reason I refuse to do appraisals when asked.) So, while there were a number of items of potential interest in the room, asking the price usually ended that interest with a quick thud. But to be honest, nothing really set my heart to racing and put my avarice on edge, so I remained in a rational mode throughout. (Of late, I will deliberately take down a few of my best and favorite things and pore over them the night before I head out to a show in order to really screw up my collector's lust calibration.) I also had some enjoyable talks with knowledgeable people and to the extent that these discussions turned to the market, the usual observation was - as expected - that the best things are still getting pricier while the more mundane are slumping a bit. Indeed, for those of us still holding Uncle Milton in reverence, it is only a matter of time until there will have to be an inflationary surge in response to what the government has done in order to moderate the disaster. So I think prices may also be being held up by a pervading thinking that it is better to have your assets in tangibles than locking in to the ridiculously low interest rates on offer for savings just now. When I go to a big quality show I am amazed at just how much stuff there is, even if less than 1% fits my current interests. It seems there are so many nice old early American swords and old muskets and rifles and powder horns. And plenty of merchandise to keep several auctions going. A universe so much larger than I remember from my earlier collecting days. I write it off to my ignorance from having grown up in middle America far from a coast. But I also worry about some of the scary stuff in Philip K. Dick's The Man in the High Castle - not the huge big stuff that was supposed to be scary in that book, by the way, by instead trivial side plot setup collector's world scary. $5,500! - one ought to be able to get a decent Viking sword for that! Which brings to mind Ewart Oakeshott, who remembered and recounted prices for genuine medieval swords in an ordinary working man's discretionary reach.

11th October 2010, 08:43 PM	#4
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 909	A Blast from the Past Michael - thanks for the update; I have really drifted out of touch! I suppose cognitively I do realize prices are way up - and I can blame only myself for one truckload of salt in that well - but, now being priced well out of the market, those early adventures still dominate my emotional memory of when, wherever I found them, purchases of Viking Age swords were denominated in small banded bundles of 100 Deutsche Mark notes. It is hard to believe that twenty-five years ago - even 15 - a good solid excavated but complete though unadorned genuine Viking Age sword was something of a hard sell for a dealer to dispose of. The adjective starting with 'e' was the hurdle for the dealer then; the trick now for the collector is to find something on offer that matches that string of adjectives, especially the one starting with 'g'... If my previous post incited any interest in Philip K. Dick, one may find the relevant passage in Man in the High Castle on Google docs; follow the link and then search down for the term "American artifacts".

12th October 2010, 06:27 PM	#7
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 909	Thread hijacking continues Do beware, Man in the High Castle is classic Philip K. Dick! I find the cited passages amazingly contemporary and insightful. Perhaps there was a burst of forgeries at the time as this came out towards the start of the U.S. Civil War Centennial in 1962. Back to modern reality; as a necessity I scan these large shows fairly quickly (ok, perhaps 4 hours does not qualify as quickly) sometimes taking an aisle at full walking speed. In this mode I am drinking in the overall type of the items - i.e. martial long-arm, another, another - but not pausing long enough to look at any marking or other detail. One criterion only - is this what I am looking for today? No? - then not another glance. The sheer quantities of personally uninspected arms and armour must put me in this existential state of mind where I start quoting Philip K. Dick. Oh! to have a set of goggles that would display one color of glow around an out-and-out forgery, with another tint for fakes and a contrasting color for honest repairs and restorations. There were a couple of swords 'in medieval style' on offer above table at Hartford; I did not ask to take them down or even examine them closely, as a quick scan did not inspire much confidence for me in their authenticity. I was burnt a couple of times when the eastern European fakes started coming out. The first of these, bought on an Internet auction, is pictured below. I have kept it as a reminder, hanging it impressively on a wall. As such things go this is a very proficient piece of work. It fooled me for a while, along with those I showed it to. It has a decent feel in the hand (tip - I have found this criterion to only be valid in the negative and disqualifying sense) and also has 'grain' though, in retrospect, perhaps a bit more of the wrought iron variety. As it ages, the applied conglomerates have started letting loose in sheets as the aging treatment continues to slowly react with the underlying metal. Attached Images

11th October 2010, 02:01 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Lee, It was interesting to read Dmitry's and your reports. A decent and original Viking sword would fetch far more than 20,000 euro in Europe. Best, Michael

11th October 2010, 08:58 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Quite right, Lee, I have noticed the same development over here, though excavated medieval - not Viking - sword finds have dropped a lot in price since so many Hungarian fakes started to flood the market some 5-8 years ago. They are so incredibly well 'aged', including the various conglomerates one would expect, that I would not touch one any more. And lots of people feel like that. Best, Michael

12th October 2010, 06:55 PM	#8
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Thank you so much, Lee, For posting this characteristic sample. This is exactly what I described - though it sounds totally unbelievable at first (and sadly second) glance and feels right when handled, after a while the conglomerates start coming off. These fakes are both highly criminal and dangerous. I was told that the Hungarians 'damage' and then bury them in dung heaps for months. The dealers pay them about 300 USD a piece. Imagine! Your sword, of course, is in 12th c. knightly style. What a pity ... Best, Michael