Sudanese Manding short sword and dagger?

RobertGuy · 8th December 2015, 04:39 PM

To add to my recent post of a haladie dagger http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20788
these are items 2 and 3 of the four piece job lot I got at auction recently.
Catalogue description:
Sudanese short sword. Plain blade. Leather covered grip. Contained in its leather and fur covered scabbard...Matching Sudanese knife.
Stats:
Short Sword
Weight: 10.9oz (0.31kg)
Length overall: 21.25'' (54cm) Blade: 16.5'' (42cm)
Profile taper: 1.12'' (28.5mm) at ricasso, 1.1'' (25.1mm) mid blade, 0.96'' (24.4 mm) 2inches from tip.
Distal taper 0.14'' (3.6mm) at ricasso, 0.14'' (3.6mm) at mid blade,. 0.11'' (2.9mm) 2 inches from tip.

Knife
Weight: 2.8oz (0.08kg)
Length overall: 10.75'' (27.5cm) Blade: 6'' (15cm)
Profile taper: 0.89'' (22.7mm) at ricasso, 0.9'' (22.8mm) mid blade, 0.71'' (18 mm) 2inches from tip.
Distal taper 0.11'' (3mm) at ricasso, 0.09'' 2.4mm) at mid blade,. 0.08'' (2.1mm) 2 inches from tip.

Blades on both were covered in rust and had a very rough finish after cleaning. Not sure if this was due to the rust or if the initial forging was rough. Prominent metal tangs protruding from the grips. Not sure if these are proto skull crushers or if they were originally covered by leather pommels or end caps. The large white areas on the sword scabbard were raw hide with the hair still on but 90% of the hair has gone. Distinctive raffia work on hilt and scabbard, which I have seen on items labelled as Manding.
Can anyone here confirm the origin? Is there any way to reliably date these items? As usual any information greatfully received.

Iain · 9th December 2015, 11:00 PM

Both of these are Manding pieces to the best of my knowledge, which to be honest covers a pretty big area, but you'll be looking at West Africa rather than the Sudan.

As for age, the best advice I can give the condition of the leather and manufacture of the blades. The oldest one in this style I'm aware of is the 1920s, but most seem to be later. If not still made today, they were until not that long ago. See Catalog No: 90.1/ 5560 AB at the AMNH as a reference.

8th December 2015, 04:39 PM	#1
RobertGuy Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 135	Sudanese Manding short sword and dagger? To add to my recent post of a haladie dagger http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20788 these are items 2 and 3 of the four piece job lot I got at auction recently. Catalogue description: Sudanese short sword. Plain blade. Leather covered grip. Contained in its leather and fur covered scabbard...Matching Sudanese knife. Stats: Short Sword Weight: 10.9oz (0.31kg) Length overall: 21.25'' (54cm) Blade: 16.5'' (42cm) Profile taper: 1.12'' (28.5mm) at ricasso, 1.1'' (25.1mm) mid blade, 0.96'' (24.4 mm) 2inches from tip. Distal taper 0.14'' (3.6mm) at ricasso, 0.14'' (3.6mm) at mid blade,. 0.11'' (2.9mm) 2 inches from tip. Knife Weight: 2.8oz (0.08kg) Length overall: 10.75'' (27.5cm) Blade: 6'' (15cm) Profile taper: 0.89'' (22.7mm) at ricasso, 0.9'' (22.8mm) mid blade, 0.71'' (18 mm) 2inches from tip. Distal taper 0.11'' (3mm) at ricasso, 0.09'' 2.4mm) at mid blade,. 0.08'' (2.1mm) 2 inches from tip. Blades on both were covered in rust and had a very rough finish after cleaning. Not sure if this was due to the rust or if the initial forging was rough. Prominent metal tangs protruding from the grips. Not sure if these are proto skull crushers or if they were originally covered by leather pommels or end caps. The large white areas on the sword scabbard were raw hide with the hair still on but 90% of the hair has gone. Distinctive raffia work on hilt and scabbard, which I have seen on items labelled as Manding. Can anyone here confirm the origin? Is there any way to reliably date these items? As usual any information greatfully received. Attached Images

9th December 2015, 11:00 PM	#2
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Both of these are Manding pieces to the best of my knowledge, which to be honest covers a pretty big area, but you'll be looking at West Africa rather than the Sudan. As for age, the best advice I can give the condition of the leather and manufacture of the blades. The oldest one in this style I'm aware of is the 1920s, but most seem to be later. If not still made today, they were until not that long ago. See Catalog No: 90.1/ 5560 AB at the AMNH as a reference.