Markings on a Takouba-mounted European Backsword

blue lander · 19th March 2016, 07:10 PM

Just won the auction for this but it won't arrive for awhile. The blade supposedly says "Zacona Toscania". Zacona is a town in Tuscany, I presume that's where it was made. Does that town have a history of making swords?

TVV · 19th March 2016, 10:40 PM

Pity about the blade damage from rust, but otherwise a very nice and interesting takouba. Iain has similar Italian backsword blade mounted ones and I am sure he will chime in.

Teodor

Iain · 20th March 2016, 12:31 AM

An intriguing one! I'll hold off on detailed comments until I can see better images, but this has some interesting features like the brass at the base of the blade.

A pity about the condition of the blade, somewhat relic condition, but I still see a lot of appeal to the piece.

I think you will find that the blade has been modified to be two edged.

I'll be interested to see details when you have it in hand. I am jealous that I didn't see it first!

blue lander · 20th March 2016, 01:04 AM

Thanks! I was a little surprised you didn't snap it up, I figured it was too ratty for your collection. At least the "interesting" part of the blade is intact.

Iain · 20th March 2016, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue lander

Thanks! I was a little surprised you didn't snap it up, I figured it was too ratty for your collection. At least the "interesting" part of the blade is intact.

I simply didn't see it!

needless to say if you tire of it....

Jim McDougall · 20th March 2016, 02:52 AM

Now this is very interesting, especially as it is well established that the single edge blade is rather an anomaly among North African swords, as the broadsword is obviously favored. However, we know that with the brisk trade in blades through various entrepots there were occasions where these became mingled in the volume in whatever small degree.

We know that many blades, despite the more dominant input from Solingen, actually likely came from Italian sources which confluenced with the other trade networks inbound on occasion.

I would suspect this to be possibly a schiavona blade and of latter quarter 18th c. I will here go out on a limb with the inscription on the blade,
'ZACONA TOSCIANA'.
Clearly the Tosciana refers to Tuscany, but I would offer the speculation that the 'zacona' may relate to the Croatian/Slovenian word 'zakona' which loosely refers to 'law'.
We know that in Venice, the famed bodyguards of the Doge consisted largely of Dalmatian (Croatian) forces, and that the schiavona (indeed termed for this nationality) was quite well known in their use.
Perhaps this inscription might relate to some force or unit in Tuscany with some legal or enforcement capacity?

Whatever the case, this blade's terrible condition may be testament to its having been in this hilt for a very long time, thus, one of the much sought after early takouba with European blade. I would rely here on Iain's view on the character and likely age of the hilt.

My question would be otherwise, why would someone mount a virtual relic condition blade in a takouba? The tribesmen in these regions take great pride in their takouba, and would deem such a sword very poorly.

blue lander · 20th March 2016, 03:58 AM

Another possible scenario is that some African merchant mounted a rusty old blade in a new hilt purely to sell to tourists, but the hilt seems just as corroded as the blade. Seems they've been togeather since before all the damage happened. Here's two more pictures of the hilt from the auction.

Jim McDougall · 20th March 2016, 06:34 AM

That is of course always possible, but that is a thing collectors have pretty much always contended with . As far as I have known however, these types would avoid using what is clearly regarded a rather pitiful blade as its marketability would be compromised.
As I mentioned, the hilt seems quite old as well, and Iain would have the final say on that as he knows these swords better than anyone .

Iain · 20th March 2016, 12:19 PM

The hilt is old, although not the oldest style I think we can identify. I think it has been with the blade since it was first mounted.

It is very hard to put a date to the hilt styles other than old, older, oldest type classification.

You have what I tend to think of as the second oldest style. The pommel is large but more of a lozenge shape than rounded. A medial ridge is defined. The guard is not boxy, but rather a wing shape, swelling where it meets the grip. The grip tube is round, not multi faceted.

Zacona I think will refer to the town, the phrase would be odd in Serbian or Croatian and in any case would require a K not a C. The blade is of a type that was widely exported including the well known firangi swords of India.I own one similar, see attached. I think the blade can be older than the 18th century, but I am not the best for dating this blade style. Better images will help when it arrives.

I am including images of what I would consider to be older hilt styles as well, hopefully what I am describing is visible from these images. In any case I think the blade and hilt are an authentic and original marriage and the sword is an excellent example of a hilt that has been with the blade for a very long time.

Roland_M · 21st March 2016, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue lander

Just won the auction for this but it won't arrive for awhile.

Congratulation, a fine sword.

I also saw it, but i bought a Piso Gading (which was not really cheap) one day before the end of this auction.

I think, it is an early Renaissance blade and one possibility could be, that this blade was found in a warrior tomb and was combined with a takouba hilt.

I wonder what can cause such massive nicks? Was he a guy like Bud Spencer?

It would be very nice, if you make a new thread after the blade is arrived.

Roland

colin henshaw · 21st March 2016, 05:12 PM

Those extensive and quite regular indentations to the blade on both sides seem very odd...

I kind of doubt if they were caused only by rust.

blue lander · 21st March 2016, 06:30 PM

If it's from rust I wonder if the pattern is due to the way the blade was forged? Or did somebody beat on the blade? You'd think that level of abuse would have snapped the blade.

Iain · 21st March 2016, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

Congratulation, a fine sword.

I also saw it, but i bought a Piso Gading (which was not really cheap) one day before the end of this auction.

I think, it is an early Renaissance blade and one possibility could be, that this blade was found in a warrior tomb and was combined with a takouba hilt.

I wonder what can cause such massive nicks? Was he a guy like Bud Spencer?

It would be very nice, if you make a new thread after the blade is arrived.

Roland

These blades were widely exported, including to North Africa and then into the Sahel region. So not unusual at all really to see early blades in takouba mounts. If you look at the ones I posted you'll see even 14th and 15th century blades.

Iain · 21st March 2016, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue lander

If it's from rust I wonder if the pattern is due to the way the blade was forged? Or did somebody beat on the blade? You'd think that level of abuse would have snapped the blade.

A combination I think. I have seen other takouba blades with abuse to the edge that looks more than just coincidental...

blue lander · 21st March 2016, 10:07 PM

When you say "exported", do you mean that they were made for export, or that they were used in Europe and then exported after their were no longer useful? If they were made for export it seems odd to put "Zacona Toscania" on the blade as nobody would be able to read it wherever it ended up. A symbol like a moon or lion or whatever would make it more identifiable I'd think.

Iain · 21st March 2016, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue lander

When you say "exported", do you mean that they were made for export, or that they were used in Europe and then exported after their were no longer useful? If they were made for export it seems odd to put "Zacona Toscania" on the blade as nobody would be able to read it wherever it ended up. A symbol like a moon or lion or whatever would make it more identifiable I'd think.

By exported I mean they were made in Europe, some were mounted in Europe, some were exported as bare blades.

As an example one of the swords I posted above next to a schiavonesca. The blades are marked the same, the form is the same, one spent its life in Europe, the other blade quite a ways away.

With a little time this summer I'll hopefully finish a longish article on this topic. There are interesting records in terms of shipments from Italy to Ottoman and Mamluk areas including blades and you find European blades being mounted in Mamluk mounts as well.

Note: for clarity the schiavonesca and the mamluk sword in the comparison images are not mine, but sourced from past auctions and used here simply to illustrate elements of the takouba form.

In terms of your blade and the examples I have given we are looking at earlier blades than the stereotypical patterns of the 18th and 19th century marked with elements like the ubiquitous half moons, made specifically for export long after those styles had past their popularity in Europe.

Iain · 30th March 2016, 03:47 PM

Did you get the sword yet blue lander?

Interested to seem more pictures.

blue lander · 30th March 2016, 06:12 PM

I emailed the guy on sunday, he said he was going to send it out on Tuesday (yesterday). I paid him awhile ago, hopefully he isn't pulling shenanigans...

kronckew · 1st April 2016, 12:13 AM

this takouba just ended on epray. single edged, desc. 1930-ish.
24in. blade 7g8 grams.

i went to bid but my browser messed up, so it is not coming home to me.

Iain · 1st April 2016, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

this takouba just ended on epray. single edged, desc. 1930-ish.
24in. blade 7g8 grams.

i went to bid but my browser messed up, so it is not coming home to me.

I noticed it as well, an interesting little piece. Relatively modern with a blade which appears to be sourced from sheet steel. But the dimensions I find rather attractive, almost machete like.

kronckew · 1st April 2016, 12:34 PM

the blade did appear to be distal tapered in one photo.

Iain · 1st April 2016, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

the blade did appear to be distal tapered in one photo.

Can be ground to be more narrow at the tip as it wouldn't surprise me if it was double edged at the tip.

kronckew · 1st April 2016, 12:57 PM

ah, well, hope it went to a good home.

blue lander · 8th April 2016, 02:21 PM

So this thing still hasn't arrived. I contacted the seller and he sent me the shipping number and a picture of the shipping label (to prove he wrote the right address ). When I looked the number up at colissimo it said it had made it to the US but couldn't be delivered and was being returned. The address he wrote was correct, I have no idea why it wasn't delivered. Any advice on how to fix this?

Iain · 8th April 2016, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue lander

So this thing still hasn't arrived. I contacted the seller and he sent me the shipping number and a picture of the shipping label (to prove he wrote the right address ). When I looked the number up at colissimo it said it had made it to the US but couldn't be delivered and was being returned. The address he wrote was correct, I have no idea why it wasn't delivered. Any advice on how to fix this?

Colissimo is delivered by USPS usually I believe. Did you contact them to see what the explanation was?

blue lander · 8th April 2016, 03:04 PM

I tried to contact Colissimo via email but they never responded. I'll try to contact USPS now.

Iain · 8th April 2016, 03:14 PM

Yep, best to contact the carrier stateside, did you try the tracking number in the USPS site?

blue lander · 8th April 2016, 05:42 PM

Yeah, I tried entering the tracking on the usps site but it doesn't have any records. I contacted usps and they basically said they have no record of the package and no idea where it is. I'm asking the seller to contact colissimo but I'm not sure if he will...

Kubur · 8th April 2016, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue lander

Yeah, I tried entering the tracking on the usps site but it doesn't have any records. I contacted usps and they basically said they have no record of the package and no idea where it is. I'm asking the seller to contact colissimo but I'm not sure if he will...

Hi
I'm really sorry for you.
I know the site where you got your sword.
There are a lot of cheaters.
The guy should provide you the original tracking number.
Remember also the customs, maybe your stuff is blocked somewhere...

Good luck
Kubur

blue lander · 17th May 2016, 03:11 AM

Well, it took longer than I expected but it finally arrived! I'll take better pictures tomorrow but I've attached a photo of the only writing I see on the blade. I don't see Toscania anywhere, just the below word. If you look at it upside down (with the edge facing upward) it sort of looks like it says ZANCONA but with the N's backwards.

19th March 2016, 07:10 PM	#1
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	Takouba with single edged European blade Just won the auction for this but it won't arrive for awhile. The blade supposedly says "Zacona Toscania". Zacona is a town in Tuscany, I presume that's where it was made. Does that town have a history of making swords? Attached Images

20th March 2016, 03:58 AM	#7
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	Another possible scenario is that some African merchant mounted a rusty old blade in a new hilt purely to sell to tourists, but the hilt seems just as corroded as the blade. Seems they've been togeather since before all the damage happened. Here's two more pictures of the hilt from the auction. Attached Images

20th March 2016, 12:19 PM	#9
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	The hilt is old, although not the oldest style I think we can identify. I think it has been with the blade since it was first mounted. It is very hard to put a date to the hilt styles other than old, older, oldest type classification. You have what I tend to think of as the second oldest style. The pommel is large but more of a lozenge shape than rounded. A medial ridge is defined. The guard is not boxy, but rather a wing shape, swelling where it meets the grip. The grip tube is round, not multi faceted. Zacona I think will refer to the town, the phrase would be odd in Serbian or Croatian and in any case would require a K not a C. The blade is of a type that was widely exported including the well known firangi swords of India.I own one similar, see attached. I think the blade can be older than the 18th century, but I am not the best for dating this blade style. Better images will help when it arrives. I am including images of what I would consider to be older hilt styles as well, hopefully what I am describing is visible from these images. In any case I think the blade and hilt are an authentic and original marriage and the sword is an excellent example of a hilt that has been with the blade for a very long time. Attached Images

1st April 2016, 12:13 AM	#19
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	this takouba just ended on epray. single edged, desc. 1930-ish. 24in. blade 7g8 grams. i went to bid but my browser messed up, so it is not coming home to me. Attached Images

17th May 2016, 03:11 AM	#30
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	Well, it took longer than I expected but it finally arrived! I'll take better pictures tomorrow but I've attached a photo of the only writing I see on the blade. I don't see Toscania anywhere, just the below word. If you look at it upside down (with the edge facing upward) it sort of looks like it says ZANCONA but with the N's backwards. Attached Images

19th March 2016, 10:40 PM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,621	Pity about the blade damage from rust, but otherwise a very nice and interesting takouba. Iain has similar Italian backsword blade mounted ones and I am sure he will chime in. Teodor

20th March 2016, 12:31 AM	#3
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	An intriguing one! I'll hold off on detailed comments until I can see better images, but this has some interesting features like the brass at the base of the blade. A pity about the condition of the blade, somewhat relic condition, but I still see a lot of appeal to the piece. I think you will find that the blade has been modified to be two edged. I'll be interested to see details when you have it in hand. I am jealous that I didn't see it first!

20th March 2016, 01:04 AM	#4
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	Thanks! I was a little surprised you didn't snap it up, I figured it was too ratty for your collection. At least the "interesting" part of the blade is intact.

20th March 2016, 02:52 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Now this is very interesting, especially as it is well established that the single edge blade is rather an anomaly among North African swords, as the broadsword is obviously favored. However, we know that with the brisk trade in blades through various entrepots there were occasions where these became mingled in the volume in whatever small degree. We know that many blades, despite the more dominant input from Solingen, actually likely came from Italian sources which confluenced with the other trade networks inbound on occasion. I would suspect this to be possibly a schiavona blade and of latter quarter 18th c. I will here go out on a limb with the inscription on the blade, 'ZACONA TOSCIANA'. Clearly the Tosciana refers to Tuscany, but I would offer the speculation that the 'zacona' may relate to the Croatian/Slovenian word 'zakona' which loosely refers to 'law'. We know that in Venice, the famed bodyguards of the Doge consisted largely of Dalmatian (Croatian) forces, and that the schiavona (indeed termed for this nationality) was quite well known in their use. Perhaps this inscription might relate to some force or unit in Tuscany with some legal or enforcement capacity? Whatever the case, this blade's terrible condition may be testament to its having been in this hilt for a very long time, thus, one of the much sought after early takouba with European blade. I would rely here on Iain's view on the character and likely age of the hilt. My question would be otherwise, why would someone mount a virtual relic condition blade in a takouba? The tribesmen in these regions take great pride in their takouba, and would deem such a sword very poorly.

20th March 2016, 06:34 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	That is of course always possible, but that is a thing collectors have pretty much always contended with . As far as I have known however, these types would avoid using what is clearly regarded a rather pitiful blade as its marketability would be compromised. As I mentioned, the hilt seems quite old as well, and Iain would have the final say on that as he knows these swords better than anyone .

21st March 2016, 05:12 PM	#11
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Those extensive and quite regular indentations to the blade on both sides seem very odd... I kind of doubt if they were caused only by rust.

21st March 2016, 06:30 PM	#12
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	If it's from rust I wonder if the pattern is due to the way the blade was forged? Or did somebody beat on the blade? You'd think that level of abuse would have snapped the blade.

21st March 2016, 10:07 PM	#15
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	When you say "exported", do you mean that they were made for export, or that they were used in Europe and then exported after their were no longer useful? If they were made for export it seems odd to put "Zacona Toscania" on the blade as nobody would be able to read it wherever it ended up. A symbol like a moon or lion or whatever would make it more identifiable I'd think.

30th March 2016, 03:47 PM	#17
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Did you get the sword yet blue lander? Interested to seem more pictures.

30th March 2016, 06:12 PM	#18
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	I emailed the guy on sunday, he said he was going to send it out on Tuesday (yesterday). I paid him awhile ago, hopefully he isn't pulling shenanigans...

1st April 2016, 12:34 PM	#21
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	the blade did appear to be distal tapered in one photo.

1st April 2016, 12:57 PM	#23
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	ah, well, hope it went to a good home.

8th April 2016, 02:21 PM	#24
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	So this thing still hasn't arrived. I contacted the seller and he sent me the shipping number and a picture of the shipping label (to prove he wrote the right address ). When I looked the number up at colissimo it said it had made it to the US but couldn't be delivered and was being returned. The address he wrote was correct, I have no idea why it wasn't delivered. Any advice on how to fix this?

8th April 2016, 03:04 PM	#26
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	I tried to contact Colissimo via email but they never responded. I'll try to contact USPS now.

8th April 2016, 03:14 PM	#27
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Yep, best to contact the carrier stateside, did you try the tracking number in the USPS site?

8th April 2016, 05:42 PM	#28
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	Yeah, I tried entering the tracking on the usps site but it doesn't have any records. I contacted usps and they basically said they have no record of the package and no idea where it is. I'm asking the seller to contact colissimo but I'm not sure if he will...