Is this authentic 19th century Gaucho knife.

ASPaulding · 21st January 2023, 03:46 AM

I recently purchased this gaucho knife and have a couple of questions. I know they still make gaucho knives to this day. I have read the article on the forum and had a few questions. There is an example of a similar modern knife made in the 20th century by Carlos Carnali in the article. The example did have a older blade with it. My example looks similar but there is zero maker marks or hallmarks on it. Somebody did engrave something on the blade but I can not read it. So how do you tell the diffrence between a authentic blade used by Gaucho versus somebody purchasing something at a jewelry or modern store. Also, I have always kept an eye out for these knives but generally the knife is out of my price point. Why do they go for as much as they do. The Gauchos are fascinating people. I do have much respect for there type of lives and know some of the things they did in the past to help the military. But we have similar here in the States. Typically a cowboy had his Bowie knife but the value is not equivalent. I feel I am missing something other than it is made of silver. Please any input you have would be appreciated.

Lee · 21st January 2023, 10:35 AM

I think that you do have an authentic "gaucho" knife. It is not uncommon for these not to have a maker's mark. I will look through Abel Domenech's impressive book for similar examples. As to whether this is 19th century or the first half of the 20th, I am unsure.

Could the crude engraving on the blade be the name 'Alfonso?'

I guess I have been out of the market for too long (at least twenty years) as I think of these as being very inexpensive compared with Bowie knives

ASPaulding · 21st January 2023, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

I think that you do have an authentic "gaucho" knife. It is not uncommon for these not to have a maker's mark. I will look through Abel Domenech's impressive book for similar examples. As to whether this is 19th century or the first half of the 20th, I am unsure.

Could the crude engraving on the blade be the name 'Alfonso?'

I guess I have been out of the market for too long (at least twenty years) as I think of these as being very inexpensive compared with Bowie knives

The knife could say Alfonso. Thank you for seeing if you could find examples in your book. Typically a standard 19th century bowie knife seems to go for no more then $200. Unless it is a coffin grip or something special. An authentic gaucho knife normally runs around $500 to a $1000. In IMHO the bowie seems to be much more substantial as a tool or weapon as well.

Lee · 21st January 2023, 04:41 PM

Well, I guess the prices have inverted! The gaucho knife in this old thread cost me exactly $35, although that was in 1972 dollars. It was Bowie knives that were out of my reach - fortunately I liked the then affordable gaucho ones much more.

David R · 21st January 2023, 09:29 PM

All the prices have risen for every collectable, though strangely Nihonto have stabilised, except for the big names, and the WWII gunto are now level pegging.

Norman McCormick · 22nd January 2023, 07:28 PM

Hi,
This article by Abel Domenech is the definitive re Gaucho knives and should be of some help. http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/facon/criollo.html
I have corresponded with Mr Domenech regarding a knife I have and found him extremely kind and helpful so that might be an idea with your knife.
Regards,
Norman.

Chris Evans · 23rd January 2023, 04:51 AM

ASPaulding,

The correct name for these knives is Cuchillo Criollo’ rather than `Gaucho Knives’, Gauchos were originally vagabonds who roamed the Pampas and could not anywhere afford a lavish piece like this. Throughout the 19th century the term gaucho morphed to include cattleman who worked from horse back, but all the same, none of these folks could afford an ornate silver mounted knife like this.

Knives of this standard were owned by ranch owners, their overseers and high ranking military men.

In the 19th century, the general practice was for local silversmiths to mount European trade blades, almost invariably stamped with the manufacturers brand, or with cut down discarded sword and bayonet blades for the larger ones. With time blades were refitted with new mountings and also some ornate and valuable mountings were fitted with new blades of various provenances, all this making full identification very difficult.

Your knife, while consistent with the general format of Criollo knives, has scabbard and handle features that do not fit the patterns that were turned out by the local silversmiths and could have been made in Europe. I must also mention that a somewhat small number of ornate fully mounted knives in this pattern were manufactured at the great European cutlery centers and exported to the Pampean regions. Also this knife may well pertain to Brazil or Uruguay rather than Argentina.

For a better evaluation, you could drop a line to Abel Domenech, fluent in English and the foremost authority on these knives.

Cheers
Chris

ASPaulding · 23rd January 2023, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

ASPaulding,

The correct name for these knives is Cuchillo Criollo’ rather than `Gaucho Knives’, Gauchos were originally vagabonds who roamed the Pampas and could not anywhere afford a lavish piece like this. Throughout the 19th century the term gaucho morphed to include cattleman who worked from horse back, but all the same, none of these folks could afford an ornate silver mounted knife like this.

Knives of this standard were owned by ranch owners, their overseers and high ranking military men.

In the 19th century, the general practice was for local silversmiths to mount European trade blades, almost invariably stamped with the manufacturers brand, or with cut down discarded sword and bayonet blades for the larger ones. With time blades were refitted with new mountings and also some ornate and valuable mountings were fitted with new blades of various provenances, all this making full identification very difficult.

Your knife, while consistent with the general format of Criollo knives, has scabbard and handle features that do not fit the patterns that were turned out by the local silversmiths and could have been made in Europe. I must also mention that a somewhat small number of ornate fully mounted knives in this pattern were manufactured at the great European cutlery centers and exported to the Pampean regions. Also this knife may well pertain to Brazil or Uruguay rather than Argentina.

For a better evaluation, you could drop a line to Abel Domenech, fluent in English and the foremost authority on these knives.

Cheers
Chris

Thank you Chris, I did not know there was such a variation in these blades. I will do more research and email Abel to see what his thoughts are. I have never heard the term Cuchillo Criollo. I appreciate you bringing it to my attention. I new the nicer examples where generally owned by the ranch owner but I did not think my knife was a fancy example. Thank you again for the information.

Chris Evans · 23rd January 2023, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASPaulding

I will do more research and email Abel to see what his thoughts are.

If you do, please post his reply.

Cheers
Chris

Fernando K · 26th January 2023, 08:28 PM

Hello

A little late I discovered this thread. I assume that the first photograph shows the blade of the knife in the only position in which it can enter the scabbard, because the rim allows only one position. So the placement is reversed. If the set was worn at the waist, on the back, the handle should be on the far right, so that the hand, with the back down and the palm up, would take it and take out the knife handled correctly, with the edge down. The same if the knife was "verijero" that is to be carried at the waist, and in front, the handle should be on the opposite side, to be taken by hand naturally and without any effort and the blade removed from the scabbard.

Affectionately

ASPaulding · 20th February 2023, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

If you do, please post his reply.

Cheers
Chris

Abel has replied to my email. He was kind enough to let me share them with this group. Thank you

"Dear Adam:

I apologize for my big delay in answering your kind first mail. I´m very sorry but I was traveling abroad when I received the first one and I needed my computer at my return to view the pictures in detail.

Now, answering your inquire: You have a very beautiful and interesting knife. Definitively it is of Brazilian origin, probably made in Southern Brazil in the early XIX Century considering the shape of its blade.

This type of knife was made for owners of Fazendas (In Argentina: Estancias, in USA Ranch). As you know Southern Brazil has a similar gaucho tradition as in my Country, Argentina as well as Uruguay.

Gauchos were very poor people and couldn´t afford this kind of luxury knives or other silver objects in general.

The use of the lady hand for the hook sheath is typical of Brazilian knives and also the shape of the handle. The hand was later copied by certain silversmiths in Argentine and Uruguay territories. The sheath decoration is also very typical of very early gaucho knives. We can classify this knife as a "puñal" for its shape.

The knife made for me by Canali is a modern work of several years ago in a handle and sheath for a very old knife blade I owned.

You can observe that there is a little hook in the end of the sheath hook. Also there is a small hole in the decoration of the tip of sheath called "batiente" in Spanish.

This is so because this type of knives had a small chain going permanently attached to the hole in the extreme of sheath and other end of chain had a small ring to hung on the little hook.

This was a custom only used in Brazil to secure the sheath to the belt and avoid loosing the knife while riding a horse. Rarely the chain is still present in these old knives today but some knives still have them.

Interesting the inscription on the blade. It was surely made by the owner because it was crudely made with a very pointed instrument on the hard surface of blade. Regrettably I tried to read it but couldn´t get what it says.

It seems to end with "fonso" ... may be the name was "Alfonso" ?? Or I´m mistaken. I´m really curious to know.

Congratulations on this wonderful piece Adam.

Again, please forgive my delay in answering you, and I hope you find these comments of interest and that they add to the enjoyment of your nice knife.

Best cordial regards, Abel"

Chris Evans · 20th February 2023, 09:55 PM

ASPaulding.

Many thanks for posting Abel's very informative reply.

Cheers
Chris

Ian · 21st February 2023, 12:51 PM

What a wonderful reply. Abel is a great person and very generous with sharing his knowledge. He is the epitome of a gentleman and a scholar.

Sajen · 21st February 2023, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

What a wonderful reply. Abel is a great person and very generous with sharing his knowledge. He is the epitome of a gentleman and a scholar.

Agree complete! Great info, thank you.

Chris Evans · 22nd February 2023, 02:42 PM

Hi folks,

For those who are interested in these knives, I highly recommend Domenech's
Dagas De Plata, a magnificent work of 393 pages and in my opinion, by far the best work on the subject..

Despite that it is written in Spanish, the many excellent photographs and illustrations render the identification of knives from the Pampean regions relatively easy. See: https://www.libreriahernandez.com/l/...968/9870502881

Cheers
Chris

Ian · 23rd February 2023, 11:19 AM

Lee,

Thanks for referencing the earlier thread discussing your own cuchillo. The comments there of Abel Domenech were again full and detailed. These knives are fascinating, and such an integral part of the cultures in that large area of South America.

Norman McCormick · 23rd February 2023, 03:56 PM

Hi,
Here is an older thread that may be of interest. http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...highlight=abel. As with the current one Mr Abel Domenech was gracious with his time and expertise.
Regards,
Norman.

Sajen · 23rd February 2023, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi,
Here is an older thread that may be of interest. http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...highlight=abel. As with the current one Mr Abel Domenech was gracious with his time and expertise.
Regards,
Norman.

Hello Norman,

Do you have tested the metal by your example? I guess it's silver.

Regards,
Detlef

Norman McCormick · 26th February 2023, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Norman,

Do you have tested the metal by your example? I guess it's silver.

Regards,
Detlef

Hi Detlef,
I never did get round to getting it tested. Now that you have reminded me

I'll dig the knife out and see about getting my local jeweller to check it out.
My Regards,
Norman.

21st January 2023, 03:46 AM	#1
ASPaulding Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Posts: 84	Is this authentic 19th century Gaucho knife. I recently purchased this gaucho knife and have a couple of questions. I know they still make gaucho knives to this day. I have read the article on the forum and had a few questions. There is an example of a similar modern knife made in the 20th century by Carlos Carnali in the article. The example did have a older blade with it. My example looks similar but there is zero maker marks or hallmarks on it. Somebody did engrave something on the blade but I can not read it. So how do you tell the diffrence between a authentic blade used by Gaucho versus somebody purchasing something at a jewelry or modern store. Also, I have always kept an eye out for these knives but generally the knife is out of my price point. Why do they go for as much as they do. The Gauchos are fascinating people. I do have much respect for there type of lives and know some of the things they did in the past to help the military. But we have similar here in the States. Typically a cowboy had his Bowie knife but the value is not equivalent. I feel I am missing something other than it is made of silver. Please any input you have would be appreciated. Attached Images

21st January 2023, 10:35 AM	#2
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 914	I think that you do have an authentic "gaucho" knife. It is not uncommon for these not to have a maker's mark. I will look through Abel Domenech's impressive book for similar examples. As to whether this is 19th century or the first half of the 20th, I am unsure. Could the crude engraving on the blade be the name 'Alfonso?' I guess I have been out of the market for too long (at least twenty years) as I think of these as being very inexpensive compared with Bowie knives

21st January 2023, 04:41 PM	#4
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 914	Well, I guess the prices have inverted! The gaucho knife in this old thread cost me exactly $35, although that was in 1972 dollars. It was Bowie knives that were out of my reach - fortunately I liked the then affordable gaucho ones much more.

21st January 2023, 09:29 PM	#5
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	All the prices have risen for every collectable, though strangely Nihonto have stabilised, except for the big names, and the WWII gunto are now level pegging.

22nd January 2023, 07:28 PM	#6
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,598	Hi, This article by Abel Domenech is the definitive re Gaucho knives and should be of some help. http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/facon/criollo.html I have corresponded with Mr Domenech regarding a knife I have and found him extremely kind and helpful so that might be an idea with your knife. Regards, Norman.

23rd January 2023, 04:51 AM	#7
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 682	ASPaulding, The correct name for these knives is Cuchillo Criollo’ rather than `Gaucho Knives’, Gauchos were originally vagabonds who roamed the Pampas and could not anywhere afford a lavish piece like this. Throughout the 19th century the term gaucho morphed to include cattleman who worked from horse back, but all the same, none of these folks could afford an ornate silver mounted knife like this. Knives of this standard were owned by ranch owners, their overseers and high ranking military men. In the 19th century, the general practice was for local silversmiths to mount European trade blades, almost invariably stamped with the manufacturers brand, or with cut down discarded sword and bayonet blades for the larger ones. With time blades were refitted with new mountings and also some ornate and valuable mountings were fitted with new blades of various provenances, all this making full identification very difficult. Your knife, while consistent with the general format of Criollo knives, has scabbard and handle features that do not fit the patterns that were turned out by the local silversmiths and could have been made in Europe. I must also mention that a somewhat small number of ornate fully mounted knives in this pattern were manufactured at the great European cutlery centers and exported to the Pampean regions. Also this knife may well pertain to Brazil or Uruguay rather than Argentina. For a better evaluation, you could drop a line to Abel Domenech, fluent in English and the foremost authority on these knives. Cheers Chris

26th January 2023, 08:28 PM	#10
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	Hello A little late I discovered this thread. I assume that the first photograph shows the blade of the knife in the only position in which it can enter the scabbard, because the rim allows only one position. So the placement is reversed. If the set was worn at the waist, on the back, the handle should be on the far right, so that the hand, with the back down and the palm up, would take it and take out the knife handled correctly, with the edge down. The same if the knife was "verijero" that is to be carried at the waist, and in front, the handle should be on the opposite side, to be taken by hand naturally and without any effort and the blade removed from the scabbard. Affectionately

20th February 2023, 09:55 PM	#12
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 682	ASPaulding. Many thanks for posting Abel's very informative reply. Cheers Chris

21st February 2023, 12:51 PM	#13
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,209	What a wonderful reply. Abel is a great person and very generous with sharing his knowledge. He is the epitome of a gentleman and a scholar.

22nd February 2023, 02:42 PM	#15
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 682	Hi folks, For those who are interested in these knives, I highly recommend Domenech's Dagas De Plata, a magnificent work of 393 pages and in my opinion, by far the best work on the subject.. Despite that it is written in Spanish, the many excellent photographs and illustrations render the identification of knives from the Pampean regions relatively easy. See: https://www.libreriahernandez.com/l/...968/9870502881 Cheers Chris

23rd February 2023, 11:19 AM	#16
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,209	Lee, Thanks for referencing the earlier thread discussing your own cuchillo. The comments there of Abel Domenech were again full and detailed. These knives are fascinating, and such an integral part of the cultures in that large area of South America.

23rd February 2023, 03:56 PM	#17
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,598	Hi, Here is an older thread that may be of interest. http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...highlight=abel. As with the current one Mr Abel Domenech was gracious with his time and expertise. Regards, Norman.