POWDER FLASKS---A QUESTION OF ORIGIN

[kahnjar1]

Whilst these powder flasks are often seen for sale, the origin stated has been a little hazy, ranging from Arabia, Persia (Iran) and Afghanistan. Also they are often referred to as made from animal scrota. Fact or fiction???
Shown here are 3 from my collection. Two are sewn in what I would call a V shape and the other is straight sewn. This one also has nice tooling decoration with what looks like Lotus flowers on each side, whilst the other two are simply tooled with lined designs.
I should add that the cap on the Lotus one is NOT original. It came to me without one, but I just happened to have a suitable spare amongst my bits and pieces.
My query is this. Is the scrotum story fact or fiction?
What is the general opinion as to origin of the two styles?
Stu

[BANDOOK]

HI STU
Here is a example from my collection and its from AFGANISTAN,the camel scrotum story is a fiction,IIBRAHIM B knows more about them as he has mentioned this in several threads before.
Kind Regards
Rajesh

[Kubur]

Well, I don't know if you will be interested by my answer, but maybe others might be interested.
I'm not an expert of camel scrotum or camel penis, but as Rajesh said, it's just a story.
My answer is simple, the one to the left is Persian, the two to the right are Afghan / Pakistani.
They are simple copies of nice Persian models.
The Persian one has nice excised floral design; the rude Afghan ones have simple incised geometrical designs.
Mountain men tried to imitate Persian powder flasks, they just tried...

[rickystl]

Collectors have referred to the one on the left as being originally of Persian origin. And I'm inclined to agree with that. Even Artzi uses the Persian origin for these flasks. He recently had one for sale with a domestic cat painted on the side of the flask. Which I think is further evidence.
The other two (with the scrotum look) I see generically termed Arab. Why, I don't know. You do see this style on Afghan belt arrangements. You see so many of this style for sale today, I wonder if they are still being made today for the tourist trade?
From a shooter's perspective, both style of flasks are light weight, medium in size, and if in decent condition are perfectly usable today. The Arab style is more handy to pour the powder in a measure due to it's tapered neck and smaller opening. But back in the period they probably just poured an approximate amount of powder directly into the barrel of the gun (dangerous!!). The Persian style is a bit more cumbersom to use due to it's larger opening. I sometimes wondered if these flasks were used to carry water instead of powder due to the large opening. But its really too small for carrying water. And the Moroccan powder horns also have large openings. Which would make it easier to re-fill with powder. One theory I have with the larger openings is that an approximate amount of powder was poured into the palm of the hand, then dropped into the barrel. The larger opening would make this faster. But just a theory.
Anyway, nice looking flasks Stu.

Rick

[David R]

I believe the caps to the flasks also double as a powder measure.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

It is said that "These camel scrotum powderflasks are very much the Arabian form". It is further said that on being released from the Ark the donkey's and camel's scrotums were mixed up and issued to the wrong animals. In fact the Arabian camel has to be assisted in the mating role by its handlers such is the pathetic size ... so the story goes.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Certainly written evidence suggests a common design and description of such scrotum like powder flasks across the Islamic sphere where Moroccan and Persian examples can be compared favourably. I place a few below to suggest originality in the form from camels scrotums. The item with Islamic/Persian script is particularly fine and can be seen at http://armsandantiques.com/19th-c-pe...er-flask-mf452 in great detail.

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by David R

I believe the caps to the flasks also double as a powder measure.

Hi David.

Good observation. Could very well be the case. Makes sense anyway.

Rick.

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

It is said that "These camel scrotum powderflasks are very much the Arabian form". It is further said that on being released from the Ark the donkey's and camel's scrotums were mixed up and issued to the wrong animals. In fact the Arabian camel has to be assisted in the mating role by its handlers such is the pathetic size ... so the story goes.

LOL!!!! Great Ibrahiim!!!

Rick

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Certainly written evidence suggests a common design and description of such scrotum like powder flasks across the Islamic sphere where Moroccan and Persian examples can be compared favourably. I place a few below to suggest originality in the form from camels scrotums. The item with Islamic/Persian script is particularly fine and can be seen at http://armsandantiques.com/19th-c-pe...er-flask-mf452 in great detail.

Hi Ibrahiim.

Thanks for posting these additional examples. Yes, the one with it's original carrying strap is especially nice, with a great patina.

Rick.

[rickystl]

Here is a Persian example from my collection. This one has evidence of field use. There is a dent on each side, and the left side shows where the dark stain has rubbed off from carrying on the right side of the torso. Even so, the stiching is still together and tight. So I use this one occassionally for loading some of my guns, especially the Persian long gun. As with most of these you find, the stopper was missing. At the time I didn't know what the stoppers were supposed to look like. But it appeared to use a plug versus a cap. So I had one made, copied from the plug on my Moroccan powder horn. Works fine. So this well used one is still in service. LOL. Much fun.

Rick

[rickystl]

Here's another Persian example from my collection. This one is in especially nice condition, and has it's original decorative plug/stopper. What's interesting is how the plug was made. It is a decorative metal pin that is continuously wrapped in leather till it meets the diameter of the sput, then stitched. Would be difficult to do. The only item missing is one of the tiny turcoise stones on the stopper. Hope I can locate one.

Rick

[rickystl]

And here is my Arab style flask, which look pretty much like all the others. Still in usable condition.

What I've often wondered is how all these leather flasks were made. It appears there were two pieces of tooled leather that were stiched tightly together, then submerged in boiling water to harden. Much like the boiled leather used under chain mail armour in the Middle Ages. What I can't figure out is how they keep the inside diameter/wider shape? Maybe when the inside is filled with water during the boiling process it expands to it's maximum? Difficult to explain what I'm trying to say.

Rick

[kahnjar1]

Thanks Gentlemen for the comments above.
So it would appear that the first one shown in my pics is Persian (Iran) origin.
Some discussion still seems to be needed for the other two though. We have "definitely Afghani" and "Arabian" as origins for these. Maybe a common style of making existed in both areas?
The comment from David regarding the use of the cap as a powder measure seems well founded, and thank you for that David.
As to the use of plug type stoppers as opposed to cap type, my only comment here would be that often the neck opening is not "square" with the actual neck, and therefore an internal plug would not necessarily fit properly.
Rick....I have some small tourquoises.
Stu

[Oriental-Arms]

Similar ones will come in steel. Wootz in this case. Persian late 18C.