Bali keris hilt - to glue or thread?

Battara · 12th October 2005, 03:56 AM

Hi folks. As some of you know, I have been working on restoring my Balinese keris for 10 years now.

I will soon be finishing within the next 2 years (before the next decade anyway

). What I wanted to know is should I glue the ivory hilt to the tang or use thread only (or both).

nechesh · 12th October 2005, 04:35 AM

STOP!......in the name of love........before you break my heart......
Think it oh oh over.

In other words. please DON'T glue it on.

Justin · 12th October 2005, 03:06 PM

I wrap the tangs in some thin cloth,it will hold them securely and its easily removable,I vote for not glueing also.

Henk · 12th October 2005, 08:41 PM

NEVER EVER GLUE AN UKIRAN TO THE PEKSI !!!!!!

Just use some cloth to wind around the peksi and put the ukiran on. Not too tight to prevent the ukiran from breaking or cracking. The ukiran should slide rather easily over the peksi just like turning a screw. Then the ukiran fits perfectly on your keris.

Working so long on your keris and then destroying it by glueing the ukiran on it???

ariel · 12th October 2005, 10:15 PM

Good grief!
I have never seen so many capital letters, exclamation points and horror icons.
You Kris people do get rather emotional, don't you? Smelling salts, anybody? And then, having recovered from vapors, please tell us how you really feel about Krazy Glue.

Henk · 12th October 2005, 11:14 PM

Ariel,

Glueing a keris is simply not done. And why should you? All parts of a keris are replaceable and removeable. When a keris blade is cleaned and re-etched the blade goes into a bath. Having a beautiful ukiran glued on it, is not very smart. The only time you can use glue on a keris is to reglue the gandar to the wrangka.

Don't we want our weapons to be original as they originally are?
The Krazy glue might be good stuff to repair broken parts. And in that case you can use glue on a keris to repair broken parts.

Battara · 12th October 2005, 11:27 PM

If I gather all of your subtle hints together and read between the lines, one might possibly infer that perhaps using cloth/thread is slightly preferable over the use of glue.

Thank you all for your help. I had read somewhere that one used glue, though most of the other references stated cloth or thread. The piece came to me glued in.

It took me a little careful time to get the old glue out to do restoration. So.....cloth/thread it is.

Any perference: cloth or thread or any other advise?

marto suwignyo · 13th October 2005, 12:24 AM

Mr. Battara

In olden times the handles of keris were most often fixed to the pesi with damar. I have read that in pre war Malaya people used melted gramaphone records to fix keris handles in place.

These days, we do sometimes use jabung, which a mixture of damar, wax and ground terracotta, to fix a handle with a short or thin pesi. This can be easily removed if it necessary by gentle application of heat to the sorsoran.

Sometimes hair has been used.

If your keris has a normally strong pesi, and if it Bali keris it probably will have, you should just use a pressure fit, as everybody else has already said.However, rather than use cloth I suggest that you use knitting wool.
Cloth does not compress very well, and if the handle too tight it might split.

nechesh · 13th October 2005, 02:13 AM

Gee Ariel, why don't you tell us what you really think about us "Kris people". I trust this was not meant with any derogatory intention.

No offense taken.

Marto is, of course, right. Other more "fixed" methods of hilt attachment have been used. I had always heard of pitch being used. Is that the same stuff as the damar you mention Marto? Certainly it would make sense that any keris that might end up being used martially would need to have a well adhered handle to be at all useful. But as Marto points out, these other materials used are not nearly as permanent as epoxy of the dreaded

Crazy Glue.

Just heat and gentle manipulation will free the blade.
The keris seems a fairly unique weapon (in many ways really) in that the removal and changability of many of it's parts (hilt, mendak, wrongko) are actually a part of the culture surrounding the blade, whether to signify some reward or added prominence in life or the changing of hands from one owner to the next. And as Henk points out, regular cleansing ceromonies require the blade be removed from the hilt.
Wow, i actually got through this entire post without using a horror icon!

........damn!

Andrew · 13th October 2005, 03:49 AM

An interesting and helpful thread. I'd love to see it stay open, gentlemen.

BluErf · 13th October 2005, 06:24 PM

Use thick nylon thread. Nylon thread repels moisture, unlike cotton cloth or thread, which actually absorbs moisture. And we all know what moisture does to kerises...

marto suwignyo · 13th October 2005, 11:02 PM

Nylon does not compress.

It even more dangerous to use nylon than to use cloth.

My recommendation was for wool. That is wool as produced by sheep.

kai · 14th October 2005, 10:02 AM

Wool may be better in a humid climate than cotton but also more prone to insect damage... How about using synthetic "wool" threads (made from nylon or some other plastic)? [I guess this is what BluErf meant with "thick nylon threads" rather than solid angling line.]

However, I doubt that the wrapping material makes any difference for those of us with indoor humidity of, say, around 70% or lower (and fairly stable temperatures).

Regards,
Kai

BluErf · 14th October 2005, 04:38 PM

Yes, the thick nylon thread I was referring to is not the clear angling sort. It is made up of many smaller strands twisted together to get a thicker thread. It can be compressed.

I guess the point is that regardless of material used to wrap the peksi, the wrapping must provide some tolerance -- i.e. a snug fit, but the hilt can be twisted without too much effort.

Picture of the thick nylon thread I was referring to.

VANDOO · 14th October 2005, 05:16 PM

HEE HEE !! THIS IS A INFORMATIVE AND FUN THREAD, I GUESS WE DO GET EMOTIONAL ABOUT OUR TREASURES. I CAN IMAGINE WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF SOMEONE ASKED IF THEY SHOULD USE THE FINE WHEEL OR THE COARSE ONE ON THEIR BENCH GRINDER TO CLEAN THEIR GREAT GRANDFATHERS ANTIQUE SWORD COLLECTION AND MAKE THE BLADES SHINEY AGAIN.

Rick · 14th October 2005, 05:37 PM

If someone wants to use old records I've got a bunch of 78 rpm's from the 1920's hanging around .

I believe they're made from lacquer .

Marto , were these ever used as a material for ukiran or handle carvings ?

nechesh · 14th October 2005, 07:50 PM

Interesting question Rick, since every now and then we see hilts that appear to have a bit of age yet are made out of highly questionable materials. Could these be old "Rudy Valee" ukirans.

As to wrappings, sometimes i think it depends on how much space there is to fill. Sometimes you get a rather large hole with a fairly thin pesi. I usually use a cotton fiber cloth and finish with some magician's silk i've had around for a while. The silk is vey squishy when wrapped and has a lot of give. Then, i've got on blade where the fit of pesi to hilt is so matched that i use no material at all.
Marto mentioned hair which i find very interesting. I've had one keris that came to me this way. I like the idea of it from a magickal perspective. It is my understanding that this is a fairly recent practice (last couple of hundred years, 1800 on or so). Do you know any more about this Marto?

Rick · 14th October 2005, 11:16 PM

My oldest keris has a hair wrapped peksi .

Battara · 15th October 2005, 05:59 AM

Well, let me say that I don't have a particularly peski peksi.

It is a little thicker and the advice of thread explains why I see this more than cloth, although I have seen cloth. Thank you so much. Another reason why I love this forum (and you folks - great humor

). Thread it is, and I'll keep my records.

nechesh · 15th October 2005, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

My oldest keris has a hair wrapped peksi .

Of course, just because it's your oldest keris we'll never know truly when it was put there.

12th October 2005, 03:56 AM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,225	Bali keris hilt - to glue or thread? Hi folks. As some of you know, I have been working on restoring my Balinese keris for 10 years now. I will soon be finishing within the next 2 years (before the next decade anyway ). What I wanted to know is should I glue the ivory hilt to the tang or use thread only (or both).

14th October 2005, 04:38 PM	#14
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Yes, the thick nylon thread I was referring to is not the clear angling sort. It is made up of many smaller strands twisted together to get a thicker thread. It can be compressed. I guess the point is that regardless of material used to wrap the peksi, the wrapping must provide some tolerance -- i.e. a snug fit, but the hilt can be twisted without too much effort. Picture of the thick nylon thread I was referring to. Attached Images

14th October 2005, 05:37 PM	#16
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Well ....... If someone wants to use old records I've got a bunch of 78 rpm's from the 1920's hanging around . I believe they're made from lacquer . Marto , were these ever used as a material for ukiran or handle carvings ?

15th October 2005, 05:59 AM	#19
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,225	Well, let me say that I don't have a particularly peski peksi. It is a little thicker and the advice of thread explains why I see this more than cloth, although I have seen cloth. Thank you so much. Another reason why I love this forum (and you folks - great humor). Thread it is, and I'll keep my records.

12th October 2005, 04:35 AM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	STOP!......in the name of love........before you break my heart...... Think it oh oh over. In other words. please DON'T glue it on.

12th October 2005, 03:06 PM	#3
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 175	I wrap the tangs in some thin cloth,it will hold them securely and its easily removable,I vote for not glueing also.

12th October 2005, 08:41 PM	#4
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	NEVER EVER GLUE AN UKIRAN TO THE PEKSI !!!!!! Just use some cloth to wind around the peksi and put the ukiran on. Not too tight to prevent the ukiran from breaking or cracking. The ukiran should slide rather easily over the peksi just like turning a screw. Then the ukiran fits perfectly on your keris. Working so long on your keris and then destroying it by glueing the ukiran on it???

12th October 2005, 10:15 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Good grief! I have never seen so many capital letters, exclamation points and horror icons. You Kris people do get rather emotional, don't you? Smelling salts, anybody? And then, having recovered from vapors, please tell us how you really feel about Krazy Glue.

12th October 2005, 11:14 PM	#6
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Ariel, Glueing a keris is simply not done. And why should you? All parts of a keris are replaceable and removeable. When a keris blade is cleaned and re-etched the blade goes into a bath. Having a beautiful ukiran glued on it, is not very smart. The only time you can use glue on a keris is to reglue the gandar to the wrangka. Don't we want our weapons to be original as they originally are? The Krazy glue might be good stuff to repair broken parts. And in that case you can use glue on a keris to repair broken parts.

12th October 2005, 11:27 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,225	If I gather all of your subtle hints together and read between the lines, one might possibly infer that perhaps using cloth/thread is slightly preferable over the use of glue. Thank you all for your help. I had read somewhere that one used glue, though most of the other references stated cloth or thread. The piece came to me glued in. It took me a little careful time to get the old glue out to do restoration. So.....cloth/thread it is. Any perference: cloth or thread or any other advise?

13th October 2005, 12:24 AM	#8
marto suwignyo Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 52	Mr. Battara In olden times the handles of keris were most often fixed to the pesi with damar. I have read that in pre war Malaya people used melted gramaphone records to fix keris handles in place. These days, we do sometimes use jabung, which a mixture of damar, wax and ground terracotta, to fix a handle with a short or thin pesi. This can be easily removed if it necessary by gentle application of heat to the sorsoran. Sometimes hair has been used. If your keris has a normally strong pesi, and if it Bali keris it probably will have, you should just use a pressure fit, as everybody else has already said.However, rather than use cloth I suggest that you use knitting wool. Cloth does not compress very well, and if the handle too tight it might split.

13th October 2005, 02:13 AM	#9
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Gee Ariel, why don't you tell us what you really think about us "Kris people". I trust this was not meant with any derogatory intention. No offense taken. Marto is, of course, right. Other more "fixed" methods of hilt attachment have been used. I had always heard of pitch being used. Is that the same stuff as the damar you mention Marto? Certainly it would make sense that any keris that might end up being used martially would need to have a well adhered handle to be at all useful. But as Marto points out, these other materials used are not nearly as permanent as epoxy of the dreaded Crazy Glue. Just heat and gentle manipulation will free the blade. The keris seems a fairly unique weapon (in many ways really) in that the removal and changability of many of it's parts (hilt, mendak, wrongko) are actually a part of the culture surrounding the blade, whether to signify some reward or added prominence in life or the changing of hands from one owner to the next. And as Henk points out, regular cleansing ceromonies require the blade be removed from the hilt. Wow, i actually got through this entire post without using a horror icon! ........damn!

13th October 2005, 03:49 AM	#10
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	An interesting and helpful thread. I'd love to see it stay open, gentlemen.

13th October 2005, 06:24 PM	#11
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Use thick nylon thread. Nylon thread repels moisture, unlike cotton cloth or thread, which actually absorbs moisture. And we all know what moisture does to kerises...

13th October 2005, 11:02 PM	#12
marto suwignyo Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 52	Nylon does not compress. It even more dangerous to use nylon than to use cloth. My recommendation was for wool. That is wool as produced by sheep.

14th October 2005, 10:02 AM	#13
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Wool may be better in a humid climate than cotton but also more prone to insect damage... How about using synthetic "wool" threads (made from nylon or some other plastic)? [I guess this is what BluErf meant with "thick nylon threads" rather than solid angling line.] However, I doubt that the wrapping material makes any difference for those of us with indoor humidity of, say, around 70% or lower (and fairly stable temperatures). Regards, Kai

14th October 2005, 05:16 PM	#15
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	HEE HEE !! THIS IS A INFORMATIVE AND FUN THREAD, I GUESS WE DO GET EMOTIONAL ABOUT OUR TREASURES. I CAN IMAGINE WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF SOMEONE ASKED IF THEY SHOULD USE THE FINE WHEEL OR THE COARSE ONE ON THEIR BENCH GRINDER TO CLEAN THEIR GREAT GRANDFATHERS ANTIQUE SWORD COLLECTION AND MAKE THE BLADES SHINEY AGAIN.

14th October 2005, 07:50 PM	#17
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Interesting question Rick, since every now and then we see hilts that appear to have a bit of age yet are made out of highly questionable materials. Could these be old "Rudy Valee" ukirans. As to wrappings, sometimes i think it depends on how much space there is to fill. Sometimes you get a rather large hole with a fairly thin pesi. I usually use a cotton fiber cloth and finish with some magician's silk i've had around for a while. The silk is vey squishy when wrapped and has a lot of give. Then, i've got on blade where the fit of pesi to hilt is so matched that i use no material at all. Marto mentioned hair which i find very interesting. I've had one keris that came to me this way. I like the idea of it from a magickal perspective. It is my understanding that this is a fairly recent practice (last couple of hundred years, 1800 on or so). Do you know any more about this Marto?

14th October 2005, 11:16 PM	#18
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	My oldest keris has a hair wrapped peksi .