Fake Kindjals

ariel · 7th March 2006, 09:09 PM

Over the past 3-4 years, there was a proliferation of fake Caucasian Kindjals on e-bay. They were unmistakable, something like that:
http://cgi.ebay.com/2Oth-CENTURY-RUS...QQcmdZViewItem

Now, please look at that:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1
This is also a fake, but look at the improvement:
The blade is really old (overcleaned to the point of getting rid of smaller fullers, but still old).
The handle and the scabbard are machine- stamped but after that they were hand-decorated a bit, with new niello and some silverwork.
Overall, this is not real antique kindjal, but a very clever and not inexpensive semi-imitation.
To give the seller his due, when I asked him, he readily admitted that it was a contemporary job.
What about all those who never thought about asking because the item looked so good?
Caveat emptor...

Tim Simmons · 7th March 2006, 09:31 PM

Yes the signs are there in the blade, do not buy what is in vogue unless you are rich then to me some of the fun is gone.

wolviex · 7th March 2006, 09:49 PM

Well, I'm not interested in kindjals at the moment and I'm not as familiar as you Ariel with this kind of weapon, but .... this look very, very good to me. I would be take in

How did you find this is fake!??! of course before you asked seller the question.

Anyway the seller must be proud of his or his comrades work, giving such closeups to everybody.

Battara · 8th March 2006, 12:29 AM

Your right Ariel,

the first one - bleh

the second one - W

W!

Expensive work indeed for a fake!

Yannis · 8th March 2006, 01:41 AM

Bravo for Ariel who asked the seller. I was sure that one day or the other, good "fake" kindjals will be in the market. There are two reasons for this (a) there are hundrends of good blades in plain or destroyed scabbards and (b) there are still fine silver artists in Caucasus. So here it is. If you are looking for good cheap kindjals dont look in Caucasus anymore. They are gone. After the pick 2 years ago, now you can find them in reasonable prices in USA or Europe market.

I personally believe that good kindjals have a superb art that will survive the tsunami of Ebay and massive export from ex Soviet.

Rivkin · 8th March 2006, 02:25 AM

For me the giveaway is a thin "wire-like" structure, like in the middle of the hilt, also on the scabbard. That's a very modern style.

Also some of the details are very unsharp, sort of like low resolution pictures - could be sing of being machined rather than done by hand ? Finally the floral pattern is somewhat untraditional.

ariel · 8th March 2006, 10:44 AM

I was struck by the hodge-podge style of decoration: it has repousse, filigree, niello, you name it.
The repousse has rounded edges: not a handwork but rather a machine stamping. The Filigree is very low-quality: the stems do not blend but seem to me just stacked close enough to pass superficial inspection.
Then, if one looks carefully, the silverwork consists of separate segments: repousse on the sides, filigree in the middle (mostly) and there are burn marks (dark spots with bluish tint) where they were soldered together. The nielloed borders are far too fresh and glistening. I am not talking about the blade: it is barbarically overcleaned with some mechanical device (see parellel scratches), but that might have happened even with the real kindjal falling into hands of an overzealous restorer. However, the contrast between the bad state of the blade and the pristine appearance of the silverwork is striking.
Then, the markings: these are not imperial stamps attesting to the purity of silver and recording the lawful tax payment. The faint "inscrptions" on the throat are nonsensical.
Overall, great job to fool a novice or an overeager buyer.
As to the cost... Well, stamping is cheap, the filigree is the simplest technique that can be taught in a day or two to a highschooler looking for a quick job, the materials are low quality silver (or even worse). Overall, I doubt the cost of this kindjal was more than $10 . Not a bad profit....
Nevertheless, the quality of fakes will continue to go up if the demand is there. Caveat emptor!

Ian · 8th March 2006, 03:53 PM

Thanks Ariel. I don't think you've told the folks who assemble these "antiques" anything more than they already knew, but you have certainly enlightened a substantial body of collectors.

The decoration on the "rejuvenated" one is so typical of what one sees in Tblisi on the brand new versions of kindjhal. As you point out, this is "knock off" work of a relatively low grade that does not qualify as restoration.

If someone (like Battara) were to take the time to truly restore an older blade in the style of its period, I think many of us would have a hard time recognizing that restoration. But the time and materials invested in such a restoration would probably not be returned when the piece was sold.

Thanks again Ariel for your insights.

Ian.

7th March 2006, 09:09 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Fake Kindjals Over the past 3-4 years, there was a proliferation of fake Caucasian Kindjals on e-bay. They were unmistakable, something like that: http://cgi.ebay.com/2Oth-CENTURY-RUS...QQcmdZViewItem Now, please look at that: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1 This is also a fake, but look at the improvement: The blade is really old (overcleaned to the point of getting rid of smaller fullers, but still old). The handle and the scabbard are machine- stamped but after that they were hand-decorated a bit, with new niello and some silverwork. Overall, this is not real antique kindjal, but a very clever and not inexpensive semi-imitation. To give the seller his due, when I asked him, he readily admitted that it was a contemporary job. What about all those who never thought about asking because the item looked so good? Caveat emptor...

7th March 2006, 09:31 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,770	Yes the signs are there in the blade, do not buy what is in vogue unless you are rich then to me some of the fun is gone.

7th March 2006, 09:49 PM	#3
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Well, I'm not interested in kindjals at the moment and I'm not as familiar as you Ariel with this kind of weapon, but .... this look very, very good to me. I would be take in How did you find this is fake!??! of course before you asked seller the question. Anyway the seller must be proud of his or his comrades work, giving such closeups to everybody.

8th March 2006, 12:29 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,186	Your right Ariel, the first one - bleh the second one - W W! Expensive work indeed for a fake!

8th March 2006, 01:41 AM	#5
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Bravo for Ariel who asked the seller. I was sure that one day or the other, good "fake" kindjals will be in the market. There are two reasons for this (a) there are hundrends of good blades in plain or destroyed scabbards and (b) there are still fine silver artists in Caucasus. So here it is. If you are looking for good cheap kindjals dont look in Caucasus anymore. They are gone. After the pick 2 years ago, now you can find them in reasonable prices in USA or Europe market. I personally believe that good kindjals have a superb art that will survive the tsunami of Ebay and massive export from ex Soviet.

8th March 2006, 02:25 AM	#6
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	For me the giveaway is a thin "wire-like" structure, like in the middle of the hilt, also on the scabbard. That's a very modern style. Also some of the details are very unsharp, sort of like low resolution pictures - could be sing of being machined rather than done by hand ? Finally the floral pattern is somewhat untraditional.

8th March 2006, 10:44 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I was struck by the hodge-podge style of decoration: it has repousse, filigree, niello, you name it. The repousse has rounded edges: not a handwork but rather a machine stamping. The Filigree is very low-quality: the stems do not blend but seem to me just stacked close enough to pass superficial inspection. Then, if one looks carefully, the silverwork consists of separate segments: repousse on the sides, filigree in the middle (mostly) and there are burn marks (dark spots with bluish tint) where they were soldered together. The nielloed borders are far too fresh and glistening. I am not talking about the blade: it is barbarically overcleaned with some mechanical device (see parellel scratches), but that might have happened even with the real kindjal falling into hands of an overzealous restorer. However, the contrast between the bad state of the blade and the pristine appearance of the silverwork is striking. Then, the markings: these are not imperial stamps attesting to the purity of silver and recording the lawful tax payment. The faint "inscrptions" on the throat are nonsensical. Overall, great job to fool a novice or an overeager buyer. As to the cost... Well, stamping is cheap, the filigree is the simplest technique that can be taught in a day or two to a highschooler looking for a quick job, the materials are low quality silver (or even worse). Overall, I doubt the cost of this kindjal was more than $10 . Not a bad profit.... Nevertheless, the quality of fakes will continue to go up if the demand is there. Caveat emptor!

8th March 2006, 03:53 PM	#8
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,138	Thanks Ariel. I don't think you've told the folks who assemble these "antiques" anything more than they already knew, but you have certainly enlightened a substantial body of collectors. The decoration on the "rejuvenated" one is so typical of what one sees in Tblisi on the brand new versions of kindjhal. As you point out, this is "knock off" work of a relatively low grade that does not qualify as restoration. If someone (like Battara) were to take the time to truly restore an older blade in the style of its period, I think many of us would have a hard time recognizing that restoration. But the time and materials invested in such a restoration would probably not be returned when the piece was sold. Thanks again Ariel for your insights. Ian.