Koummya with nice(?) blade

shayde78 · 3rd August 2017, 10:02 PM

I finally found a koummya with a blade nicer than I have seen in person. The thing that seems incongruent to me is the fact that the scabbard is a muddled mess. That leads me to think I am overestimating the quality of the blade, or that the blade was refitted with furniture of lesser quality.

What are your thoughts? For scale, the tiles are 1'x1'.

Thanks all!

shayde78 · 3rd August 2017, 10:05 PM

Also, while on the topic, I have had this other example that, although the blade seems not too impressive, the ornamentation on the scabbard seems quite well done. Additionally, both sides are treated with the same decoration. The feature I'd like to get feedback on are the suspension rings. They are as nicely designed as the rest, and are fully integrated into the scabbard. I haven't seen this element before...is it specific to a distinct form/period?

Cheers.

Sajen · 3rd August 2017, 11:15 PM

For me, and I am not an expert by this sort of daggers, is the first one the real deal. Look to the worn holes for the carrying strip, this dagger was long time in use, so also the blade for real use and the worn and (tribal) repaired scabbard. I would choose the first one!

Regards,
Detlef

Kubur · 4th August 2017, 09:19 AM

If you want some brights comments, you should use a flash!

motan · 4th August 2017, 12:47 PM

Hi Detlef,
I think the blade IS good, but probably foreign made, because of the a-typical bevels. Usually, sides have an unsharpened edge of different lengths: long on convex side and short on the concave side. In yours, the bevels start at the same place, but there is an additional one on the convex side. The forte looks very European-like in a straight hunting dagger.
The scabbard and hilt look like they have been of good quality, but are worn beyond recognition. So, besides the poor condition of the outer part, it probably IS or at least was a good and old dagger.
This assymetry in all koummyas is food for thought. I do not know how curved daggers were used in general, but both sides are usually sharpened in the same way. So, both sides can be equally used for cutting. In koummyas, it appears that the main edge for cutting is the concave edge. Not only because it is longer, but also because in examples where the blade is deformed by re-sharpening, it is the inner edge that has been mostly re-sharpened. A throat cutter??

motan · 4th August 2017, 12:52 PM

Hi Shayde78,
I am sorry to say that, but the blade is NOT a good blade and the whole is typical of a koummya made for the tourist trade.
Keep looking and read references in the forum for some good examples.

Sajen · 4th August 2017, 03:45 PM

Hi Eytan,

I think you mixed up here something, both Koummya belong to shayde78, I only commented with my limited knowledge.

But you seems to confirm what I've said. And yes, I think also that the first dagger have a trade blade, like Kubur I would like to see better pictures.

And like you I think that the second piece is a so called tourist dagger, cheaply worked with steel sheet blade.

Better pictures would be really helpful.

Regards,
Detlef

Helleri · 4th August 2017, 09:47 PM

Can't hardly see that first blade. I took the image to GIMP and applied contrast mask and some mild sharpening.

motan · 5th August 2017, 01:22 PM

Yes Detlef, I see my mistake. But everything I wrote is still valid, also with the new picture. The silver is soft and what happened to the rings shows it has been carried for many years. Probably a late 19th c. piece.

Sajen · 6th August 2017, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motan

Yes Detlef, I see my mistake. But everything I wrote is still valid, also with the new picture. The silver is soft and what happened to the rings shows it has been carried for many years. Probably a late 19th c. piece.

Agree complete with you!

shayde78 · 6th August 2017, 06:29 PM

Thank you all for the feedback. In the old blade (the first item pictured) there may be a maker's Mark under the grime at the base of the riccaso. I will try to get better pictures of that for you.

Regarding the second item: while I was fairly certain of the low quality of the blade, my real question was about the suspension rings which seem unique in my (admittedly) limited experience. Any feedback on this specific element?

Thanks again.

Sajen · 6th August 2017, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shayde78

Regarding the second item: while I was fairly certain of the low quality of the blade, my real question was about the suspension rings which seem unique in my (admittedly) limited experience. Any feedback on this specific element?

Not uncommon, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...7&postcount=20

taken from this interesting thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=koummya

But like said, I am afraid that this piece is very recent.

Regards,
Detlef

Kubur · 6th August 2017, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shayde78

Thank you all for the feedback. In the old blade (the first item pictured) there may be a maker's Mark under the grime at the base of the riccaso. I will try to get better pictures of that for you.
Thanks again.

It's normal. All the 19th c. koummya have imported blades.
Let's see if it's an English, French or Spanish blade...

Quote:

Originally Posted by shayde78

Regarding the second item: while I was fairly certain of the low quality of the blade, my real question was about the suspension rings which seem unique in my (admittedly) limited experience. Any feedback on this specific element?
Thanks again.

It's normal, this kind of koummya has this kind of suspension rings.

shayde78 · 12th August 2017, 01:51 AM

So I've cleaned off enough grime to see the mark. It isn't complete, as it appears a portion has worn off. To me, it looks like the leg and three tail feathers of a bird(?). In this condition, abstract enough to be open to interpretation. I'm hoping someone with a good list of known marks can match it up to something.
As always, thanks for your insights.

Oh, and a picture of the full blade again. I know folks weren't too pleased with the prior pics, so I hope these prove more useful.

shayde78 · 15th August 2017, 06:00 PM

Oops! I promised a better image of the blade, and instead uploaded two images of the mark (any thoughts on the mark, by the way??).

Here is the brighter image of the whole thing:

shayde78 · 25th August 2017, 02:53 AM

Wow...no guesses regarding the maker's mark, eh?

shayde78 · 6th September 2017, 02:32 AM

I found something that might be a similar mark; Juan Martinez of Toledo. The date seems way too old, however. Also, not an exact match, but I'm not sure how accurately these marks are transcribed.

Thoughts?

shayde78 · 25th October 2017, 01:32 AM

Jim provided some thoughts on the maker's mark here (and many thanks, Jim!)

Since there doesn't seem to be a European connection, has anyone seen a bird mark used an blades from the Islamic world that would be consistent with this mark as shown in post #14?

3rd August 2017, 10:05 PM	#2
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Also, while on the topic, I have had this other example that, although the blade seems not too impressive, the ornamentation on the scabbard seems quite well done. Additionally, both sides are treated with the same decoration. The feature I'd like to get feedback on are the suspension rings. They are as nicely designed as the rest, and are fully integrated into the scabbard. I haven't seen this element before...is it specific to a distinct form/period? Cheers. Attached Images

15th August 2017, 06:00 PM	#15
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Oops! I promised a better image of the blade, and instead uploaded two images of the mark (any thoughts on the mark, by the way??). Here is the brighter image of the whole thing: Attached Images

6th September 2017, 02:32 AM	#17
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	I found something that might be a similar mark; Juan Martinez of Toledo. The date seems way too old, however. Also, not an exact match, but I'm not sure how accurately these marks are transcribed. Thoughts? Attached Images

3rd August 2017, 10:02 PM	#1
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Koummya with nice(?) blade I finally found a koummya with a blade nicer than I have seen in person. The thing that seems incongruent to me is the fact that the scabbard is a muddled mess. That leads me to think I am overestimating the quality of the blade, or that the blade was refitted with furniture of lesser quality. What are your thoughts? For scale, the tiles are 1'x1'. Thanks all! Attached Images

3rd August 2017, 11:15 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,766	For me, and I am not an expert by this sort of daggers, is the first one the real deal. Look to the worn holes for the carrying strip, this dagger was long time in use, so also the blade for real use and the worn and (tribal) repaired scabbard. I would choose the first one! Regards, Detlef

4th August 2017, 09:19 AM	#4
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	If you want some brights comments, you should use a flash!

4th August 2017, 12:47 PM	#5
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hi Detlef, I think the blade IS good, but probably foreign made, because of the a-typical bevels. Usually, sides have an unsharpened edge of different lengths: long on convex side and short on the concave side. In yours, the bevels start at the same place, but there is an additional one on the convex side. The forte looks very European-like in a straight hunting dagger. The scabbard and hilt look like they have been of good quality, but are worn beyond recognition. So, besides the poor condition of the outer part, it probably IS or at least was a good and old dagger. This assymetry in all koummyas is food for thought. I do not know how curved daggers were used in general, but both sides are usually sharpened in the same way. So, both sides can be equally used for cutting. In koummyas, it appears that the main edge for cutting is the concave edge. Not only because it is longer, but also because in examples where the blade is deformed by re-sharpening, it is the inner edge that has been mostly re-sharpened. A throat cutter??

4th August 2017, 12:52 PM	#6
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hi Shayde78, I am sorry to say that, but the blade is NOT a good blade and the whole is typical of a koummya made for the tourist trade. Keep looking and read references in the forum for some good examples.

4th August 2017, 03:45 PM	#7
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,766	Hi Eytan, I think you mixed up here something, both Koummya belong to shayde78, I only commented with my limited knowledge. But you seems to confirm what I've said. And yes, I think also that the first dagger have a trade blade, like Kubur I would like to see better pictures. And like you I think that the second piece is a so called tourist dagger, cheaply worked with steel sheet blade. Better pictures would be really helpful. Regards, Detlef

4th August 2017, 09:47 PM	#8
Helleri Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Chino, CA. Posts: 219	Can't hardly see that first blade. I took the image to GIMP and applied contrast mask and some mild sharpening.

5th August 2017, 01:22 PM	#9
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Yes Detlef, I see my mistake. But everything I wrote is still valid, also with the new picture. The silver is soft and what happened to the rings shows it has been carried for many years. Probably a late 19th c. piece.

6th August 2017, 06:29 PM	#11
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Thank you all for the feedback. In the old blade (the first item pictured) there may be a maker's Mark under the grime at the base of the riccaso. I will try to get better pictures of that for you. Regarding the second item: while I was fairly certain of the low quality of the blade, my real question was about the suspension rings which seem unique in my (admittedly) limited experience. Any feedback on this specific element? Thanks again.

12th August 2017, 01:51 AM	#14
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	So I've cleaned off enough grime to see the mark. It isn't complete, as it appears a portion has worn off. To me, it looks like the leg and three tail feathers of a bird(?). In this condition, abstract enough to be open to interpretation. I'm hoping someone with a good list of known marks can match it up to something. As always, thanks for your insights. Oh, and a picture of the full blade again. I know folks weren't too pleased with the prior pics, so I hope these prove more useful. Attached Images

25th August 2017, 02:53 AM	#16
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Wow...no guesses regarding the maker's mark, eh?

25th October 2017, 01:32 AM	#18
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Jim provided some thoughts on the maker's mark here (and many thanks, Jim!) Since there doesn't seem to be a European connection, has anyone seen a bird mark used an blades from the Islamic world that would be consistent with this mark as shown in post #14?