Modified Barong, Farm Implement or Something Else?

drac2k · 5th February 2021, 09:48 PM

I just picked up this item and I'm not quite sure if it is a barong with a modified tip, or something else. It looks like it could have been hit by a bullet or maybe just a rock. The handle is horn.
Has anyone seen something like this before

Rick · 5th February 2021, 09:56 PM

Are those stamps I see on the blade?

drac2k · 6th February 2021, 12:50 AM

No, the front (large indentation)missing metal, on the back, a bulge, and missing metal. It could be delamination, but it doesn't really look like it to me.

Sajen · 6th February 2021, 11:37 AM

Very interesting item.

Never seen something similar.

Regards,
Detlef

drac2k · 6th February 2021, 05:00 PM

I was wondering if someone modified a barong for agricultural use or if it was actually a form of a sword.

kronckew · 6th February 2021, 07:15 PM

The Spanish occupiers of the Philippines at one point outlawed sharp pointy things. They did permit sharp blunt things, and allowed breaking off the points on 'agricultural tools' to make them into 'not weapons'. Which of course did not work, as most of the weapony items were designed to cut and slice, not so much poke.

Bit of thread veer, but kinda on topic:

I have a European (Italian) pipe-back cavalry sword that has an obvious bullet strike, an obvious neat circular depression on the port side about a foot or so from the guard, and a nice round bump on starboard, not involving the pipe spine at all or bend the blade, the depression circle just touches the spine. There is a slight crack on the edge which is presumably harder. Had the blade been laminated as your might be, it might look like that tho. The scabbard has no damage, so presumably the owner was using it at the time and re-scabbarded it after, and survived. If yours is the same, they both would have quite a tale to tell.

Italian 1877 pipe-back sabre you can just make out the dimple. I like to think it was used at the Last Italian Savoia Cavalry Charge against the Soviets in ww2. the Last Italian Savoia Cavalry Charge against the Soviets in ww2.

Interesting that the last surviving horse was blinded but survived til 1960. The ref. movie is here at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WB_niblRkW0
(in Italian & B&W) - The good bits start at 1:13:15 - The white horse survivor is quite prominent.

We now return you to our regularly scheduled program: Veer off.

drac2k · 6th February 2021, 10:53 PM

Your posts are always insightful, informative, and appreciated.

kronckew · 7th February 2021, 04:32 AM

happy to help when I can. (and sometimes when I can't

)

Sajen · 7th February 2021, 11:32 AM

Hello Drac2k,

Have you tried to etch the blade? The way the lamination looks near the tip could give a clue if the blade is cut at this point.

The handle with the ferrule looks very old and worn to my eyes and can be very well original to the blade.

Only my thoughts when I look at your pictures.

Regards,
Detlef

drac2k · 7th February 2021, 03:17 PM

Hello back.
I think your assessment on the handle and the ferrule being original to the blade are correct as well as it having good age.
In regards to etching the blade to determine if the tip has been cut is a great idea, however, my one attempt at doing it scared the heck out of me and showed me that I had no business in doing so! It was a mess!

Interested Party · 7th February 2021, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drac2k

Hello back.
I think your assessment on the handle and the ferrule being original to the blade are correct as well as it having good age.
In regards to etching the blade to determine if the tip has been cut is a great idea, however, my one attempt at doing it scared the heck out of me and showed me that I had no business in doing so! It was a mess!

Would a light polish and vinegar be inappropriate? Like the one in Jim Hrisoulas' chapter on tanto's in "the complete bladesmith"? It is hard to mess up, other than the polish, and non-toxic. Very subtle results that remind me superficially of a patina from age.

drac2k · 7th February 2021, 04:27 PM

Believe it or not, that is what I was using the first and the last time; the blade started rusting and it looked horrible. I did neutralize it with baking soda and continuous rinses and I oiled the blade, but the laminations were very dark and not at all pleasing to me.
To me, etching isn't extremely desirable("The Fox & the Grapes,"), if it has it, wonderful (such as Tibetan blades with strong patterns), and if not, that is fine too.
I do appreciate your input and I thank you.

Sajen · 7th February 2021, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drac2k

Hello back.
I think your assessment on the handle and the ferrule being original to the blade are correct as well as it having good age.
In regards to etching the blade to determine if the tip has been cut is a great idea, however, my one attempt at doing it scared the heck out of me and showed me that I had no business in doing so! It was a mess!

It's a pity since an etch would show probably if the blade is cut down.

kronckew · 7th February 2021, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drac2k

Believe it or not, that is what I was using the first and the last time; the blade started rusting and it looked horrible. I did neutralize it with baking soda and continuous rinses and I oiled the blade, but the laminations were very dark and not at all pleasing to me.
...
I do appreciate your input and I thank you.

Etching works by selectively attacking the differing metallurgy, the most susceptible getting attacked and removed more, but all will corrode. The trick is to stop etching before you remove too much material - a personal judgement.

FeCl looks really nasty until neutralised and cleaned,Acetic acid less so, and is easier to remove colour with easy polishing. Fruit acids tend to give good results too. Limes are popular. Arsenic washing is probably not a good idea unless you have an Indonesian Keris and a death wish. My Barungs and Kris have been vinegar tested just to confirm or deny laminations, then simichrome repolished to bring it back to original. I'm not too pleased with the color FeCl leaves.

Interesting aside: lemons and limes are essentially the same, their taste and smell component that makes the difference is exactly the same molecule, just arranged slightly differently one is right handed, the other is left handed, they're isomers of each other. To further confuse, limes can also be yellow and lemons green.

5th February 2021, 09:48 PM	#1
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,234	Modified Barong, Farm Implement or Something Else? I just picked up this item and I'm not quite sure if it is a barong with a modified tip, or something else. It looks like it could have been hit by a bullet or maybe just a rock. The handle is horn. Has anyone seen something like this before Attached Images

6th February 2021, 07:15 PM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,186	The Spanish occupiers of the Philippines at one point outlawed sharp pointy things. They did permit sharp blunt things, and allowed breaking off the points on 'agricultural tools' to make them into 'not weapons'. Which of course did not work, as most of the weapony items were designed to cut and slice, not so much poke. Bit of thread veer, but kinda on topic: I have a European (Italian) pipe-back cavalry sword that has an obvious bullet strike, an obvious neat circular depression on the port side about a foot or so from the guard, and a nice round bump on starboard, not involving the pipe spine at all or bend the blade, the depression circle just touches the spine. There is a slight crack on the edge which is presumably harder. Had the blade been laminated as your might be, it might look like that tho. The scabbard has no damage, so presumably the owner was using it at the time and re-scabbarded it after, and survived. If yours is the same, they both would have quite a tale to tell. Italian 1877 pipe-back sabre you can just make out the dimple. I like to think it was used at the Last Italian Savoia Cavalry Charge against the Soviets in ww2. the Last Italian Savoia Cavalry Charge against the Soviets in ww2. Interesting that the last surviving horse was blinded but survived til 1960. The ref. movie is here at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WB_niblRkW0 (in Italian & B&W) - The good bits start at 1:13:15 - The white horse survivor is quite prominent. We now return you to our regularly scheduled program: Veer off. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 6th February 2021 at 08:45 PM.

5th February 2021, 09:56 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Are those stamps I see on the blade?

6th February 2021, 12:50 AM	#3
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,234	No, the front (large indentation)missing metal, on the back, a bulge, and missing metal. It could be delamination, but it doesn't really look like it to me.

6th February 2021, 11:37 AM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,794	Very interesting item. Never seen something similar. Regards, Detlef

6th February 2021, 05:00 PM	#5
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,234	I was wondering if someone modified a barong for agricultural use or if it was actually a form of a sword.

6th February 2021, 10:53 PM	#7
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,234	Your posts are always insightful, informative, and appreciated.

7th February 2021, 04:32 AM	#8
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,186	happy to help when I can. (and sometimes when I can't )

7th February 2021, 11:32 AM	#9
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,794	Hello Drac2k, Have you tried to etch the blade? The way the lamination looks near the tip could give a clue if the blade is cut at this point. The handle with the ferrule looks very old and worn to my eyes and can be very well original to the blade. Only my thoughts when I look at your pictures. Regards, Detlef

7th February 2021, 03:17 PM	#10
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,234	Hello back. I think your assessment on the handle and the ferrule being original to the blade are correct as well as it having good age. In regards to etching the blade to determine if the tip has been cut is a great idea, however, my one attempt at doing it scared the heck out of me and showed me that I had no business in doing so! It was a mess!

7th February 2021, 04:27 PM	#12
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,234	Believe it or not, that is what I was using the first and the last time; the blade started rusting and it looked horrible. I did neutralize it with baking soda and continuous rinses and I oiled the blade, but the laminations were very dark and not at all pleasing to me. To me, etching isn't extremely desirable("The Fox & the Grapes,"), if it has it, wonderful (such as Tibetan blades with strong patterns), and if not, that is fine too. I do appreciate your input and I thank you.