Please help ID a Spadroon

[fernando]

Belongs in a local fellow collector.
On one side of the blade the usual PRO PATRIA. On the other, neither word is identifiable ... nor the guy's faces.
Some help would be most welcome.

.

[Jim McDougall]

By the overall character of the hilt, this appears to be an English officers 'spadroon' of probably end of 18th into 1810-20. The blade motif emulates Hungarian mottos including the wording in the phrase which is associated with the 'Hungarian knot' , talismanic devices on much earlier Eastern European sabres. While these are typically regarded as infantry officers weapons, it seems likely this may be a cavalry related sword.
The military oriented motif includes the familiar 'Turks head' image and Pro Patria invocation associated with early sabre blades of Poland and Hungary of 18th century, much admired by the military fashions of the 18th century.

The spadroon is basically a straight sabre, single edged and designed for both cut and thrust. These began use around 1780s in England and typically had hilts of this type in neoclassic design. Im unclear on the device in the raised portion of the crossguard, but typically there were significant motifs incorporated within, often simple geometric figures which had particular symbolism. Key to these swords often were several balls or beads on the knuckleguard and crossguard, typically five, and most of these spadroons were termed 'five ball hilts', though some had as many as seven.

[fernando]

Ah, the cavalry never fails us .
Much obliged, Jim my friend.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Nando! In looking at that device in the guard, I think it quite likely this is probably a grenadier officers, and quite honestly I havent seen this type device before in these. Can we get a better shot of it?
These swords ended up being copied by the French in a relatively strange turn in cross diffusion, and were colloquially termed ' l'Anglaise'. In America, in thier typical fascination with the French military fashion adopted these hilts during the 'Federal' period of neoclassicism in the 1810-20s, and the reeded ivory grips carried forward into swords used up to the Civil War.

[fernando]

I too would love to be able to read the wording, even not being able to translate/interpreter it; but the guy is the humbliest photographer.
I enticed him to take new and better pictures. I feel there is still more to go on this ID.

[M ELEY]

Very nice piece! Jim, I think you are right about grenadier, as the device on the extended guard does appear to be the typical 'flaming bomb' motiff. That might also indicate a French association, perhaps?

[Hotspur]

Perhaps in lieu of a better photo, the fellow could do his best in offering a transcription of the letters. Edit to add that the French spadroon blades ae usually more epee like without a full lebgth fuller to the point.

Neat sword.

Cheers

GC

[Fernando K]

E B E E N S G R I B P R O

P A T R I A E P A T R I A

(¿?)

Fernando K

[Fernando K]

E B E E N S G R I B / P A T R I A E


P R O / P A T R I A

Fernando K

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Fernando K

E B E E N S G R I B ...

Meaning ?

[Richard G]

Two little oddities I'd like to point out:-
1, It is not too difficult to see a grenade in the hilt, but as far as I am aware steel hilted English weapons of this time were pretty well restricted to light infantry or rifle regiments. Brass (gilt) would have been more normal.
2, The inscriptions on the forte are inscribed whereas the turks head etc. are etched. I have seen etching scribed for greater detail but this seems half and half.
Regards
Richard

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent points Richard. In looking at the hilt, it is also interesting that the groupings of five 'beads' often found on the crossguard and knuckleguard are absent. I just know Ive seen this device in the crossguard somewhere, but as yet have not found it, despite of course being seemingly a grenade.
While it remains tempting to consider this French, who as noted were using this type hilt and blade in this time, the shape of the pommel, sword knot ring at top of knuckleguard and reeded ivory grip seem profoundly English.
In looking at the blade, it is tempting to regard this blade motif as of the 'Caissagnard' fashion, a noted French location where blades apparantly were decorated with 'magical' motif which often included the 'blackamoor' head (Boutell, 1931), a heraldic term for Turks head. These designs, along with certain Christian talismanic devices such as the latticework and invocational or patriotic mottos from Hungarian motifs seem to have been adopted in Solingen for exported blades in the 18th century. Actually the Turks head seen on this example matches exactly a blade on a French sword, but these blades were of course often from Solingen, much as were English blades.

The indecipherable words in the inscription seem to correspond to similarly lettered words used in a talismanic sense in what is typically associated with devices known as the 'Transylvanian knot' in Hungary (in my earlier post I had misnoted this as the Hungarian knot). These are quite likely to be acrostics rather than actual words similar to inscriptions on many early European blades which are invocational either magically or religiously.

With British officers of these times, they had wide latitude as far as regulations in military fashion, and could have acquired swords outside the standards typically observed. Also, and I may be off base, but it seems that ebony and dark grips were often keenly favored on French officers swords, though obviously not without exceptions, and I think that has me still favoring English.

[Richard G]

Jim,
I agree, I think many would describe this as an "unusual" English hilt.

The blade is a little more problematic. On an English sword of this era (even with a German blade) I think it would have been more usual for the forte to have been reserved for the makers or retailers name or trademark, and "Pro Patria" etc. to be on the middle of the blade. Also I struggle to make any sense of "E B E E N S G R I B".

This blade almost looks as if made for wholesale with an etched Turks head etc. and the forte left deliberately blank to be available for inscription by the buyer.

I don't think it is a fake, or anything like that, but it does have these anomalies.
Regards
Richard

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Richard G

Jim,
I agree, I think many would describe this as an "unusual" English hilt.

The blade is a little more problematic. On an English sword of this era (even with a German blade) I think it would have been more usual for the forte to have been reserved for the makers or retailers name or trademark, and "Pro Patria" etc. to be on the middle of the blade. Also I struggle to make any sense of "E B E E N S G R I B".

This blade almost looks as if made for wholesale with an etched Turks head etc. and the forte left deliberately blank to be available for inscription by the buyer.

I don't think it is a fake, or anything like that, but it does have these anomalies.
Regards
Richard

Absolutely Richard! and I agree that a Solingen blade made for the English market would be probably left open at the forte as you suggest. There do not seem to be specific guidelines for these practices however, and actually the Solingen makers catered with certain degrees of unique styling and features for various markets. The popularity of the fashionable hussars of East Europe during the latter 18th century is well established, and much of the decorative motif of the blades of thier swords were much admired by fashion conscious officers.
As noted, this exact image of the 'Turk' head is seen in the book on French blades, and the 'Transylvanian' style motto may suggest the blade was likely Solingen produced for Continental use, and may have gotten to England through any number of ways. Naturally it is virtually impossible to determine exactly which situation or circumstance might account for this.

These kind of situations are even more complex with officers in colonial regions who have paired native hilts with regulation blades, or vice versa such as in India, Arabia and North Africa. Basically, blade and hilt are quite separate entities, and it is always a challenge to try to classify these kinds of hybrids. I had a sabre with one of these strangely lettered, basically it seems indecipherable, inscriptions, actually almost identical to the Transylvanian inscriptions I noted. It was identified as a Hungarian sabre 18th century with Ottoman style hilt. It turned out to be Arab, probably Bedouin, and probably mounted 19th century. When I asked about what the words, which seemed Hungarian, meant, I was told bluntly, nothing, it cannot be translated.

I think its a very nice sword, and the 'anomaly' of it is what gives it its compelling charm, and the absolute wonder of these weapons is often the mysteries they hold

[fernando]

This is the interpretation from a most experienced local collector/historian:


One side of the blade says PRO-PATRIA and the other says DE FENSGRIBI PATELAN.
On the blade spine, which the owner forgot to mention, it says EX LIBERALI DONO D.F. GOTTENBUSCH 1798.
The guy in the blade etching is a hussard, with his typical cap.
Potentialy this sword was made in Hungary and sold to a German, in service in Italy.