Indonesian knife and shield?

Tim Simmons · 18th February 2006, 08:01 PM

My OCD got hold today and I now have these. They are not my normal thing, as they were cheap? I took a punt on them armed with knowledge from this forum. Am I right in my assumption?

The knife in the scabbard is 35cm, 31cm out. The blade is just under 21cm. There is some damage to the silver wire inlay but just acceptable. Looks a bit like a Bowie knife.

The shield is just over 33cm diameter, steel sheet and was at one time silver plated but where it has been worn off a light rust is now on the surface. A little difficult to sort out without taking away more plate, unless you know otherwise.

RobT · 19th February 2006, 02:08 AM

Tim,
I think the shield is a dahl from India. I'm not sure about the knife but I don't think it's from Indonesia. Both items are really nice. The knife blade looks like a bowie blade from the US or Mexico but the sheath doesn't. Are you sure the knife is original to the sheath? the sheath looks like it could be Turkish to me. You could try the electrolysis method to remove the rust. It won't hurt the silver unless there is rust between the silver and the steel.
Sincerely,
RobT

RobT · 19th February 2006, 02:13 AM

Tim,
I think the shield is a dahl from India. I'm not sure about the knife but I don't think it's from Indonesia. Both items are really nice. The knife blade looks like a bowie blade from the US or Mexico but the sheath doesn't look like it's from the US. Are you sure the knife is original to the sheath? The sheath looks like it could be Turkish to me although something in the back of my mind says it could also be Mexican. I really don't know much about Mexican blades however. You could try the electrolysis method to remove the rust. It won't hurt the silver unless there is rust between the silver and the steel.
Sincerely,
RobT

Henk · 19th February 2006, 08:54 AM

Tim,

Both pieces aren't Indonesian. The shield is Like RobT said probably a dahl. It isn't a shield from Atjeh. The knife might origin from the Fillipines. That's my first guess.

Tim Simmons · 19th February 2006, 10:05 AM

Thanks, here are some daylight pictures.

The scabbard I am sure is original to the knife, matching copper , tool and decorative marks, not to nention the fit and handle. Now the Philippines are mentioned I can recall many similar knives shown here.

Any idea as to where in India a shield like this would be used and what weapon/weapons could I look for to add to it? Thanks for your help. Tim

Tim Simmons · 19th February 2006, 12:58 PM

I have just been looking at the knife with a loop and have found that the all the copper parts were gilded, this is showing up as the greenish colour in the larger photos. I think these two pictures show the gilding left on the scabbard mouth. Tim.

Justin · 19th February 2006, 03:33 PM

I may be off track here but the knife looks like it could be from South East Asian to me,maybe one of our dha experts could help.

RobT · 19th February 2006, 03:55 PM

Tim,
Sorry for the double post. I believe the dahl was used all over the subcontinent so your sword choices include but aren't limited to Tulwar, Sosun pata and Khyber knife. I imagine maces, axes and lances would also be good choices. I've been thinking a lot about your knife. To me neither the blade shape nor the decoration on the blade looks Philippine. To me, Philippine clip point blades tend to be more curvelinear and have a bigger belly. Your blade shape looks exactly like a late 1800 British bowie blade. The blade decoration on your piece looks like Indian koftgari. Is it? The metal work on the sheath throat and drag of your piece also looks more Indian than Philippine. I wonder if it wasn't a British bowie sold in India as a blade only and given local dress. Whatever the case, I suspect you got a pair of steals. Congrats.
Sincerely,
RobT

Tim Simmons · 19th February 2006, 05:45 PM

Rob,
Thanks for the interest and help. It is nice to be able to match things IE right sword right shield. I got a Khyber knife on the same forage.
This knife is turning out quite a surprise! on very close inspection one is able to see that it has been forged from an old file. The scoring for the hammered silver wire is on top of the characteristic remnants of a coarse file, the scale pattern can be seen with a +10 loop in patches almost to the tip of the blade. Maybe someone might be able to guess as to whereabouts in India it may have been made? it is certainly the best quality knife I have seen made from a file. Thanks Tim.

Freddy · 19th February 2006, 08:33 PM

Tim,
Doesn't the decoration on your knife resemble the scrollwork on the kukri I showed recently ?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=kukri

Tim Simmons · 19th February 2006, 08:38 PM

It does indeed, a Burmese bowie, that sound good to me and maybe a little rare.

When I think about it I think we have been shown and someone has a Dha with similar diagonal decorative engraving on a silver handle. Tim

RobT · 19th February 2006, 10:55 PM

Tim,
Crosshatch scoring is what is used to hold koftgari in place therefore the blade may not have been made from a file but rather scored by local craftsmen prior to the koftgari application. Given the presence of the crosshatch below the silver, this explanation seems quite plausable. I have asked the respondants to a bowie knife thread started by Titus Pullo to lend their expertise here. I have a feeling that their expertise will provide a positive ID.
Sincerely,
RobT

Tim Simmons · 20th February 2006, 10:23 AM

Rob,
I am really being a nerd but it is fun and better than TV. I agree about scoring for the silver but these marks are in the wrong place in various areas but all in the same plane. I have tried to capture this but is difficult with basic equipment. As I mentioned the best views are with a +10 loop. The large picture is the knife in question, the small one is of a African file made knife which shows the distinctive makes other than those for the koftgari. Thanks Tim.

galvano · 20th February 2006, 07:07 PM

hi
Your blade is a forged file
galvano

Tim Simmons · 20th February 2006, 08:18 PM

Yes it must be. I am going side with Justin and Freddy in that it is not Indian. I am not sure it is Burmese , I am starting to think and all the bits fit together, sticking my neck out and say this is maybe a little rare and from Malay. Unless you know better? Tim

18th February 2006, 08:01 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Indonesian knife and shield? My OCD got hold today and I now have these. They are not my normal thing, as they were cheap? I took a punt on them armed with knowledge from this forum. Am I right in my assumption? The knife in the scabbard is 35cm, 31cm out. The blade is just under 21cm. There is some damage to the silver wire inlay but just acceptable. Looks a bit like a Bowie knife. The shield is just over 33cm diameter, steel sheet and was at one time silver plated but where it has been worn off a light rust is now on the surface. A little difficult to sort out without taking away more plate, unless you know otherwise. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 18th February 2006 at 09:35 PM.

19th February 2006, 02:08 AM	#2
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 493	Dahl Tim, I think the shield is a dahl from India. I'm not sure about the knife but I don't think it's from Indonesia. Both items are really nice. The knife blade looks like a bowie blade from the US or Mexico but the sheath doesn't. Are you sure the knife is original to the sheath? the sheath looks like it could be Turkish to me. You could try the electrolysis method to remove the rust. It won't hurt the silver unless there is rust between the silver and the steel. Sincerely, RobT

19th February 2006, 02:13 AM	#3
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 493	Dahl Tim, I think the shield is a dahl from India. I'm not sure about the knife but I don't think it's from Indonesia. Both items are really nice. The knife blade looks like a bowie blade from the US or Mexico but the sheath doesn't look like it's from the US. Are you sure the knife is original to the sheath? The sheath looks like it could be Turkish to me although something in the back of my mind says it could also be Mexican. I really don't know much about Mexican blades however. You could try the electrolysis method to remove the rust. It won't hurt the silver unless there is rust between the silver and the steel. Sincerely, RobT

19th February 2006, 10:05 AM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Thanks, here are some daylight pictures. The scabbard I am sure is original to the knife, matching copper , tool and decorative marks, not to nention the fit and handle. Now the Philippines are mentioned I can recall many similar knives shown here. Any idea as to where in India a shield like this would be used and what weapon/weapons could I look for to add to it? Thanks for your help. Tim Attached Images

19th February 2006, 12:58 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I have just been looking at the knife with a loop and have found that the all the copper parts were gilded, this is showing up as the greenish colour in the larger photos. I think these two pictures show the gilding left on the scabbard mouth. Tim. Attached Images

19th February 2006, 08:54 AM	#4
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Tim, Both pieces aren't Indonesian. The shield is Like RobT said probably a dahl. It isn't a shield from Atjeh. The knife might origin from the Fillipines. That's my first guess.

19th February 2006, 03:33 PM	#7
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 175	I may be off track here but the knife looks like it could be from South East Asian to me,maybe one of our dha experts could help.

19th February 2006, 03:55 PM	#8
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 493	Tulwar, Sosun Pata, etc. Tim, Sorry for the double post. I believe the dahl was used all over the subcontinent so your sword choices include but aren't limited to Tulwar, Sosun pata and Khyber knife. I imagine maces, axes and lances would also be good choices. I've been thinking a lot about your knife. To me neither the blade shape nor the decoration on the blade looks Philippine. To me, Philippine clip point blades tend to be more curvelinear and have a bigger belly. Your blade shape looks exactly like a late 1800 British bowie blade. The blade decoration on your piece looks like Indian koftgari. Is it? The metal work on the sheath throat and drag of your piece also looks more Indian than Philippine. I wonder if it wasn't a British bowie sold in India as a blade only and given local dress. Whatever the case, I suspect you got a pair of steals. Congrats. Sincerely, RobT

19th February 2006, 05:45 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Rob, Thanks for the interest and help. It is nice to be able to match things IE right sword right shield. I got a Khyber knife on the same forage. This knife is turning out quite a surprise! on very close inspection one is able to see that it has been forged from an old file. The scoring for the hammered silver wire is on top of the characteristic remnants of a coarse file, the scale pattern can be seen with a +10 loop in patches almost to the tip of the blade. Maybe someone might be able to guess as to whereabouts in India it may have been made? it is certainly the best quality knife I have seen made from a file. Thanks Tim.

19th February 2006, 08:33 PM	#10
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Tim, Doesn't the decoration on your knife resemble the scrollwork on the kukri I showed recently ? http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=kukri

19th February 2006, 08:38 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	It does indeed, a Burmese bowie, that sound good to me and maybe a little rare. When I think about it I think we have been shown and someone has a Dha with similar diagonal decorative engraving on a silver handle. Tim Last edited by Tim Simmons; 19th February 2006 at 09:04 PM. Reason: another thought.

19th February 2006, 10:55 PM	#12
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 493	the plot thickens Tim, Crosshatch scoring is what is used to hold koftgari in place therefore the blade may not have been made from a file but rather scored by local craftsmen prior to the koftgari application. Given the presence of the crosshatch below the silver, this explanation seems quite plausable. I have asked the respondants to a bowie knife thread started by Titus Pullo to lend their expertise here. I have a feeling that their expertise will provide a positive ID. Sincerely, RobT

20th February 2006, 10:23 AM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Rob, I am really being a nerd but it is fun and better than TV. I agree about scoring for the silver but these marks are in the wrong place in various areas but all in the same plane. I have tried to capture this but is difficult with basic equipment. As I mentioned the best views are with a +10 loop. The large picture is the knife in question, the small one is of a African file made knife which shows the distinctive makes other than those for the koftgari. Thanks Tim. Attached Images

20th February 2006, 07:07 PM	#14
galvano Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 178	blade hi Your blade is a forged file galvano

20th February 2006, 08:18 PM	#15
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Yes it must be. I am going side with Justin and Freddy in that it is not Indian. I am not sure it is Burmese , I am starting to think and all the bits fit together, sticking my neck out and say this is maybe a little rare and from Malay. Unless you know better? Tim