Handgonnes with iron stock

[Spiridonov]

Handgonne from old German historica:

1. pic.1-2 "2nd half of the 15th century. Forged iron octagonal barrel in 16 mm calibre with a swamped muzzle and a forge-welded hook on the bottom. The vent is on top with a depression for powder. Horseshoe-shaped smith marks on the side and underneath. At the end of the barrel a tapering tiller of quadrangular section with a ring pommel. Pitted and corroded surfaces. Length 93 cm."(c)

Pay attention to mark which looks like horseshoe

[Spiridonov]

Handgonne from old German historica:

2. pic. 3-5 "Forged iron round barrel in 14 mm calibre with a swamped muzzle and a forge welded hook on the underside. Touch hole on the right side with a powder recess. At the end of the barrel there is a tapered quadrangular tiller with a ring finial. Pitted, corroded surface. Length 77 cm." (c)

[Spiridonov]

Else. Length 860 mm:

[Matchlock]

Hi Alexander,

The first two tiller haquebuts can be closely dated to ca. 1500 and were offered for sale at a Munich auction house.

The third item is a crude modern forgery!

Thanks for posting,
Michael

[Spiridonov]

Thank You for answer, Michael. Do You know anything about horseshoe mark? Do You have photos of handgonnes with iron stock which is 1460-80 years?

[Matchlock]

Hi Alexander,

I do not think that I've seen that horseshoe mark before.

Please see my older thread on tiller guns from the 2nd half of the 15th century:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=tiller+guns

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

In the Musée de l'Armée, Paris, inv.no. M.1, ca. 1430, the period when hooks seemed to appear for the first time; made of wrought-iron bars and rings (Stabringgeschütz).

As the touch hole should be situated on top but obviously is not on the photo it seems that the ring bearing the hook is movable and displaced from its working position.


m

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

In the Musée de l'Armée, Paris, inv.no. M.1, ca. 1430, the period when hooks seemed to appear for the first time; made of wrought-iron bars and rings (Stabringgeschütz).

m

What would its caliber be, Michl ?

[Matchlock]

Hi 'Nando,

That's what I would like to now too but the museum catalog I scanned the image from does not provide any measurements, and when I attended the Musée de l'Armée by special appointment and was allowed to photograph anything I wished to, the Medieval Department was sadly closed.
Thus I could not see or access the piece but I estimate its overall length to be ca. 60-70 cm, which would make a bore of ca. 20-30 mm seem reasonable.
As the barrel walls seem relatively thin it is probable that, as was often the case, the originally smaller 'bore' was widened during the later working life of the gonne.

Best,
Michl

[Matchlock]

My friend Alexender photographed this very interesting specimen in the Artillery Museum St. Petersburg:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...tillery+museum

I wish to repost his images in another of his threads where they probably belong the most, which is here.


The overall length of this huge and heavy all-iron tiller gone is 1.92 m, the monstrous bore 10.5 cm, denoting that it was not a portable but strictly stationary piece. Its rear grip end is shaped like the hilt of a knife and laterally punched with a series of decorative cross-shaped elements. The hook is rather short and blunt, mounted on a ring, and the outer surface of the gun retains its completely original red minium paint.

As the piece is fitted with a hook, and the right-hand side touch hole has what seems to be an integrally wrought pan molding, a date of late 15th c. seems appropriate.

This is the biggest tiller gun by far I have ever noticed! Its sheer dimensions are unbelievable!


Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

A close-up of the rudimentary pan-like molding beneath the touch hole, to receive the priming powder and be touched by an igniting iron or a length of smoldering slow match.

m