Two african knifes for ID

tomato77 · 7th January 2024, 12:40 PM

Hello Friends,

I got two more knifes that I'd like your opinion about. I got both separately a while ago on ebay for a few bucks and I wasn't able to really figure out their origin.

The first one (with the sheath) got a crudely made blade and a wooden handle that I haven't seen on african knifes before in this style. It somehow looks 'odd' I have to admit. I found a possible reference to Banjangi-knifes from Cameroon on african-weapons: https://african-weapons.com//gallery...dokumente-1908
Uhlmann (2003) also mentions that sheaths made of parchment (instead of leather) are typical for Cameroon and this sheath is made from parchment. There are four holes for attaching the sheath to a cord.

The second one came without a sheath and is definitly of higher quality that the first one. It is actually rather heavy with a sturdy blade and metal inlays in the wooden hilt. The brass section on the blade reminds me of senegalese knifes of the Dan, but this is the only idea I got.

Best

Thomas

Ian · 7th January 2024, 03:01 PM

Hi Thomas,

You have eclectic tastes in weapons.

A quick tip. When you have pictures of the whole sword, it is best to orient them horizontally across the page rather than vertically. It is hard to get the overall picture of the item when it is necessary to scroll up and down to see it. The software will adjust the size of the image to fit the screen when oriented horizontally, so it is possible to see the whole image at once. Our brains work better that way.

Regards,

Ian

tomato77 · 8th January 2024, 04:34 PM

Hi Ian,

thanks for the hint. I'll keep that in mind for further inqueries.

Best

Thomas

Ian · 11th January 2024, 01:05 PM

Bump ... anyone able to help our new member, Thomas.

TVV · 11th January 2024, 07:13 PM

The knife without the scabbard is from West Africa, probably from Senegal. I could be wrong, but this is my best guess.

Pertinax · 11th January 2024, 08:33 PM

Привет Томас.
Нож в ножах. Данная форма мечей и ножей характерна у племен Камерунского нагорья. Африканское оружие сложно датировать. Учитывая достаточно гармоничное сочетание рукояти с клинком и ножнами, отсутствие следов позднего вмешательства, уместно предположить, что предмет в целом может быть датирован не ранее второй половиной XX в. Возможно, в отверстиях ножен были украшения.
С уважением Юрий

Hello Thomas.
Knife in knives. This form of swords and knives is characteristic of the tribes of the Cameroon Highlands. African weapons are difficult to date. Considering the rather harmonious combination of the handle with the blade and sheath, and the absence of traces of late intervention, it is appropriate to assume that the object as a whole can be dated no earlier than the second half of the 20th century. Perhaps there were decorations in the holes of the scabbard.
Regards, Yuri

Кинжал из департамента Майо-Сава Крайнесеверного региона Камеруна из моей коллекции, примерно вторая половина ХХ века.

Dagger from the Mayo-Sava is a department of Extreme-Nord Province in Cameroon from my collection, second half of the 20th century.

tomato77 · 12th January 2024, 09:06 AM

Thank you veyr much for the answers and thank you, Ian, for bumping the post up again.

May I kindly ask, which characteristics lead to your decisions? I totally agree with your general localization of the two knifes.

Your knife, Yuri, is quite obviously a Haussa dagger as I got one myself (see picture attached). I agree that the shape of the blade is very similar, but neither is the sheath nor the handle. I've never seen a Haussa dagger with such a handle. I've seen knifes of the Salampasu in the Democratic Republic of Congo which got similar handles even though most (but not all) Salampasu knifes got very different blade shapes.

Quite the same keeps me wondering about the other knife without a sheath, TVV. The knob at the hilt and the brass section do point at Senegal, but all the references I can find show significant differences. On Catawiki (though not a reliable source at all) there is a knife with some comparable features placed in Mauretania. I found other sources placing such knifes with the Assanya, the "neighbours" of the Tuareg.

I really hope we can sort this out. I know that these knifes are not prime examples with the gold and diamonds, but I really find them very interesting to localize.

Best

Thomas

Tim Simmons · 12th January 2024, 02:13 PM

The other knife is from the Luba people in the Congo. This image is from; Seltene Afrikanische Kurzwaffen, Manfred A Zirngibl. the German title. Other weapon in the publication may be rare but these are not really. I had a nice one with a twist forged in the blade to cause more damaging wounds.

Pertinax · 12th January 2024, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomato77

Thank you veyr much for the answers and thank you, Ian, for bumping the post up again.

May I kindly ask, which characteristics lead to your decisions? I totally agree with your general localization of the two knifes.

Your knife, Yuri, is quite obviously a Haussa dagger as I got one myself (see picture attached). I agree that the shape of the blade is very similar, but neither is the sheath nor the handle. I've never seen a Haussa dagger with such a handle. I've seen knifes of the Salampasu in the Democratic Republic of Congo which got similar handles even though most (but not all) Salampasu knifes got very different blade shapes.

Quite the same keeps me wondering about the other knife without a sheath, TVV. The knob at the hilt and the brass section do point at Senegal, but all the references I can find show significant differences. On Catawiki (though not a reliable source at all) there is a knife with some comparable features placed in Mauretania. I found other sources placing such knifes with the Assanya, the "neighbours" of the Tuareg.

I really hope we can sort this out. I know that these knifes are not prime examples with the gold and diamonds, but I really find them very interesting to localize.

Best

Thomas

В датировке и идентификации ножа мне помогли фотографии путешественников, побывавших в данном регионе, которые нашел в сети.
1. «Кирди-музыкант», кинжал, Крайний Север Камеруна - Майо-Сава - Мора, 1931 - 1933
2. «Лавка торговца скобяными изделиями», новые кинжалы, Крайний Север Камеруна - Майо-Сава - Майо-Плата, ноябрь 1982 г.
С уважением Юрий

I was helped in dating and identifying the knife by photographs of travelers who had visited this region, which I found on the Internet.
1. “Kirdi the Musician”, dagger, Far North Cameroon - Mayo-Sawa - Mora, 1931 - 1933
2. “Hardmonger’s Shop”, new daggers, Far North Cameroon - Mayo Sawa - Mayo Plata, November 1982.
Regards, Yuri

7th January 2024, 12:40 PM	#1
tomato77 Member Join Date: Dec 2023 Posts: 14	Two african knifes for ID Hello Friends, I got two more knifes that I'd like your opinion about. I got both separately a while ago on ebay for a few bucks and I wasn't able to really figure out their origin. The first one (with the sheath) got a crudely made blade and a wooden handle that I haven't seen on african knifes before in this style. It somehow looks 'odd' I have to admit. I found a possible reference to Banjangi-knifes from Cameroon on african-weapons: https://african-weapons.com//gallery...dokumente-1908 Uhlmann (2003) also mentions that sheaths made of parchment (instead of leather) are typical for Cameroon and this sheath is made from parchment. There are four holes for attaching the sheath to a cord. The second one came without a sheath and is definitly of higher quality that the first one. It is actually rather heavy with a sturdy blade and metal inlays in the wooden hilt. The brass section on the blade reminds me of senegalese knifes of the Dan, but this is the only idea I got. Best Thomas Attached Images

11th January 2024, 08:33 PM	#6
Pertinax Member Join Date: Dec 2023 Location: City by the Black Sea Posts: 156	Привет Томас. Нож в ножах. Данная форма мечей и ножей характерна у племен Камерунского нагорья. Африканское оружие сложно датировать. Учитывая достаточно гармоничное сочетание рукояти с клинком и ножнами, отсутствие следов позднего вмешательства, уместно предположить, что предмет в целом может быть датирован не ранее второй половиной XX в. Возможно, в отверстиях ножен были украшения. С уважением Юрий Hello Thomas. Knife in knives. This form of swords and knives is characteristic of the tribes of the Cameroon Highlands. African weapons are difficult to date. Considering the rather harmonious combination of the handle with the blade and sheath, and the absence of traces of late intervention, it is appropriate to assume that the object as a whole can be dated no earlier than the second half of the 20th century. Perhaps there were decorations in the holes of the scabbard. Regards, Yuri Кинжал из департамента Майо-Сава Крайнесеверного региона Камеруна из моей коллекции, примерно вторая половина ХХ века. Dagger from the Mayo-Sava is a department of Extreme-Nord Province in Cameroon from my collection, second half of the 20th century. Attached Images

12th January 2024, 09:06 AM	#7
tomato77 Member Join Date: Dec 2023 Posts: 14	Thank you veyr much for the answers and thank you, Ian, for bumping the post up again. May I kindly ask, which characteristics lead to your decisions? I totally agree with your general localization of the two knifes. Your knife, Yuri, is quite obviously a Haussa dagger as I got one myself (see picture attached). I agree that the shape of the blade is very similar, but neither is the sheath nor the handle. I've never seen a Haussa dagger with such a handle. I've seen knifes of the Salampasu in the Democratic Republic of Congo which got similar handles even though most (but not all) Salampasu knifes got very different blade shapes. Quite the same keeps me wondering about the other knife without a sheath, TVV. The knob at the hilt and the brass section do point at Senegal, but all the references I can find show significant differences. On Catawiki (though not a reliable source at all) there is a knife with some comparable features placed in Mauretania. I found other sources placing such knifes with the Assanya, the "neighbours" of the Tuareg. I really hope we can sort this out. I know that these knifes are not prime examples with the gold and diamonds, but I really find them very interesting to localize. Best Thomas Attached Images

12th January 2024, 02:13 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	The other knife is from the Luba people in the Congo. This image is from; Seltene Afrikanische Kurzwaffen, Manfred A Zirngibl. the German title. Other weapon in the publication may be rare but these are not really. I had a nice one with a twist forged in the blade to cause more damaging wounds. Attached Images

7th January 2024, 03:01 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,194	Hi Thomas, You have eclectic tastes in weapons. A quick tip. When you have pictures of the whole sword, it is best to orient them horizontally across the page rather than vertically. It is hard to get the overall picture of the item when it is necessary to scroll up and down to see it. The software will adjust the size of the image to fit the screen when oriented horizontally, so it is possible to see the whole image at once. Our brains work better that way. Regards, Ian

8th January 2024, 04:34 PM	#3
tomato77 Member Join Date: Dec 2023 Posts: 14	Hi Ian, thanks for the hint. I'll keep that in mind for further inqueries. Best Thomas

11th January 2024, 01:05 PM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,194	Bump ... anyone able to help our new member, Thomas.

11th January 2024, 07:13 PM	#5
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,619	The knife without the scabbard is from West Africa, probably from Senegal. I could be wrong, but this is my best guess.