What sort of steel is this please? (Indian blade)

[Atlantia]

Good Evening gentlemen,

I noticed some distinct fine layering in the steel of this Indian blade so gave it a quick lemon juicing and these are the results.

Its a good blade, but can those who know about the various types of layered steel from that area just throw some opinions at me please?


I would appreciate help with understanding exactly what I'm looking at here.

Regards
Gene

[RSWORD]

The blade does appear to be wootz but the pattern is a sham style and not the typical tight, crystalline damask found on many Indian blades.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by RSWORD

The blade does appear to be wootz but the pattern is a sham style and not the typical tight, crystalline damask found on many Indian blades.

Hi RSWORD,

Thanks for the reply.
I thought it looked like wootz but I couldn't identify the pattern or why it was so 'flowing' and even (if that makes any sense?) and began to wonder if I was just being hopeful.


Edit:
AH! 'sham' refers to the flowing semi straight pattern without any swirls etc!
Yes, I looked through some old threads!



Regards
Gene

[Philip]

I tend to think that the surface patterning is due to layering, and as such it would be a form of pattern-weld. The effect, which reminds me of pamor or hada, appears to be too continuous to be the crystalline dendrites which are the characteristic of wootz. The eye can follow the lines in the pattern for a distance, whereas the visual impression given by wootz tends to be like flowing water: there is a current but the individual ripples aren't contiguous. Furthermore, in the two pics I see what look like pockets of black carbon which are oriented along the undulating lines. These look like the cold-shuts resulting from imperfect welds which sometimes occur in the production of a pattern-welded or folded-steel lamellar blade.

[Atlantia]

HI Phillip,

Thanks for coming in on this.
I had a quick look for 'sham wootz' online last night and noticed some similar discussions about if 'sham' should really even be described as wootz, is that what we're seeing here, or do you think this shouldn't be categorised as sham and is 'just' a finely layered/folded steel?


Regards
Gene

[ALEX]

I agree with RSWORD. This is typical sham pattern. Some still debate sham's attribution to wootz, but it has not been officially declared as non-wootz. The inferiority of sham comparing to other more prominent patterns is another topic, but generally speaking - sham wootz is still wootz

[Philip]

Gene,
Based on everything I've seen of "sham", it' wootz. As you probably well know, the name "sham" in this case is a Near Eastern term, it doesn't mean "false" or "faux" as we would use it in English.

Even if your blade is not wootz, it shouldn't be a cause of disappointment! There's nothing wrong with pattern welding, layering, lamination, and all that; as we all know a number of cultures East and West did some remarkable things with it and the craft is pursued at a high level even today. Wootz is indeed a marvellous thing (when it's done right, and frankly said there's more indifferent to bad stuff out there than there is the really excellent), but we should not elevate it to the status of a sacred cow. Even in this, the Year of the Ox!

[Atlantia]

Alex and Philip,

Thankyou for continuing this discussion.

I think I should add a picture of the entire piece, so that you can see why I was suprised to notice the layering.

I've had this knife for a long long time and have only recently 're-found' it.
I asked a question about its identity a while ago and was pleased to find out that these Indian/Nepalese hunting type knives do have a following.
I did not however expect that the balde would be anything other than plain steel.

Imagine my suprise?






Philip.
Absolutely, I'm happy whatever it is. I am just happy its not a land-rover leaf spring!
I am still smiling at the unexpected bonus of having this interesting new aspect to something I'd taken for granted for so many years.


Gene

P.S.some decent daylight here would be nice to get some better pictures! Bloody overcast days.

[Atlantia]

I'm really suprised this hasn't engendered more discussion.

[Philip]

I forwarded this discussion page to smith Ric Furrer, who lives in Wisconsin and is one of the few in his trade to have mastered the art of making wootz, and he also thinks tthat this blade is something else. Hopefully he'll be posting on this thread soon with an explanation.

[Atlantia]

Making Wootz?
Whoa!
I guess like all of us I've got some very pretty modern 'damascus' pattern welded stuff, I didn't even know that anyone was making new wootz.

Clearly this is an area I need a better understanding of.
When I first noticed some lines in the blade and realised they were not left by shaping polishing etc, I was kinda excited as I thought it might be something interesting, but the results of the lemon were not what I expected at all.

Not to mention baffling!

If we assume its not much older than early 20th, then if it was made in India, I'd have expected just plain steel.
Wouldn't Nepal be more like Tibet if they were going to use a folding technique, wouldn't it look much more obvious like hair-pin?

I'd love to see some examples of this techniqe in other blades to give me more of a 'context' for it, and pin its location too.

I can't help but think (even though I like the dagger) that if its 'sham' then isn't it in the wrong place and isn't it a lot of effort for a knife to sell to some English 'invader'.
Similarly, if its folded/pattern welded then its by far the closest and finest I've seen, not a 'style' I'm familiar with in the context of India/Nepal and why would they bother on a brass mounted knife, again to sell to a foreigner?
Oh, and don't forget, a knife in emulation of the western bowie style?



I am certainly greatful to you guys for helping, and debating its origins!

[Philip]

It seems that the "hairpin" folding patterns of Tibet. Bhutan, and parts of the Assam and the Sino-Tibetan borderlands were not, as a rule, carried over into Nepal. I've polished a good number of kukris for collectors of these things. Two of them, in the former John Powell collection, were very spectacular pattern welds; one ( a budhume or broad-bladed type) had the dense distribution of "pools" or "bird eyes" seen also on some Indian talwars, the other one (a narrower-bladed "honshee" with a longish grip) had a striking and highly unusual pattern resembling a forest of fir trees. Both were differentially heat treated, the edge showing up as a broad band of differing color and refractiveness, analogous to a "hamone" on a Japanese blade. Other kooks which I've polished showed evidence of much simpler lamination others were all but homogenous (probably made from railroad steel or carriage springs, per Mr. Powell) but they invariably had the "temper line" at the edges.

The art of forging pattern welded blades, some of pretty high quality, is still alive in India.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Philip

It seems that the "hairpin" folding patterns of Tibet. Bhutan, and parts of the Assam and the Sino-Tibetan borderlands were not, as a rule, carried over into Nepal. I've polished a good number of kukris for collectors of these things. .

Thats interesting Phillip, Ive only etched about 10 laminated kukris { All from my own collection.} But 2 exhibit clear Tibetan hairpin style of forging.

So I guess it just depends on which kukis you happend to etch. There a lot of individualty amongst them even in the steel types & patterns.

I admired your skill on your work for JP. That fir tree kukri had a wonderfull pattern indeed!

Spiral

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Philip

It seems that the "hairpin" folding patterns of Tibet. Bhutan, and parts of the Assam and the Sino-Tibetan borderlands were not, as a rule, carried over into Nepal. I've polished a good number of kukris for collectors of these things. Two of them, in the former John Powell collection, were very spectacular pattern welds; one ( a budhume or broad-bladed type) had the dense distribution of "pools" or "bird eyes" seen also on some Indian talwars, the other one (a narrower-bladed "honshee" with a longish grip) had a striking and highly unusual pattern resembling a forest of fir trees. Both were differentially heat treated, the edge showing up as a broad band of differing color and refractiveness, analogous to a "hamone" on a Japanese blade. Other kooks which I've polished showed evidence of much simpler lamination others were all but homogenous (probably made from railroad steel or carriage springs, per Mr. Powell) but they invariably had the "temper line" at the edges.

The art of forging pattern welded blades, some of pretty high quality, is still alive in India.

Hi Philip

I'd like to see other examples of similar steel techniques from that area! Have you still got any pictures of the knives you worked on?

Do you think with mine I would get clearer results if I did a light repolish and used ferric chloride?

Spiral.
Any thoughts on this knife?

Regards
Gene

[spiral]

Hi Gene, Well it looks 20th century to me, either India or Nepal, Its nice & I wonder if its been made out of an older piece of reclaimed steel perhaps?

I have seen a similar pattern steel in a Sikh Kirpan but never truly deduced what it was. I think shear steel is quite likely though.

I know its a nice & interesting piece you have there.

Spiral

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by spiral

Hi Gene, Well it looks 20th century to me, either India or Nepal, Its nice & I wonder if its been made out of an older piece of reclaimed steel perhaps?

I have seen a similar pattern steel in a Sikh Kirpan but never truly deduced what it was. I think shear steel is quite likely though.

I know its a nice & interesting piece you have there.

Spiral

Hi Spiral,
Thanks for replying.

If you come across any pics of have any further thoughs

Cheers
Gene

[Philip]

Spiral: Thanks for sharing your experience with polishing "kooks", I've learned some new things about hairpin welding on some of these, thanks to you. Do you mind sharing pics of one of yours with this type of lamination?

Gene: Sadly I didn't take pics of either of the two spectacular kukris I polished for JP, but he, being an expert photog, did and I believe that he posted them on this forum. This being back in 2003-04 sometime (? memory is hazy) you might need to search the archived threads.

Yes, if you polished your knife to a finer surface and carefully etched with ferric chloride, it's possible to get the pattern to pop out more distinctly if the steels in the layers have enough differentiation in terms of alloying or carbon content. Sometimes the stuff can be stubborn and a slow, controlled oxydation process is necessary to get the contrast.

Sorry, I can't tell you much about the style of your knife other than the blade design looks quite Western-influenced and doesn't appear to be traditional to the area. Perhaps another forum member can shed light on blades of similar type.

[spiral]

Will do Gene.

Certanly Phillip, This ones a bit of an anomoly to me. Its a Chainpuri or Limbu villager style kukri but with Tibetan style folding.

So after a quick hefting & glancing at the blade in sunlight I decided to do a quick & dirty 10 second bathroom bleach spray, a 5 second wipe of lemon juice & a quick rinse rinse in hot water just to see what i had & it revealed this rather course but lovely blade.

I am sure the white metal handle { probably cast zinc from old battery cases & toothpaste tubes! } & the steel bolster are replacments, . Clearly this was a well used kukri at some time in its past, the spine has been well beaten for splitting firewood but luckily someone still liked it enough a few decades ago to re handle it so its life could continue.

I am rather left wondering the age of the blade... Any idea when the Tibetans {&/or Nepalis} stoped doing this style of lamination?

The other one is more traditional in style & much larger, but I need to work on it it again for photos as I originaly only brought up the pattern with lemon juice or vinigar & its very faint .

[Philip]

Interesting blade! It actually has a double hairpin, it's on both ends. Do you have a copy of the Met's exhibition catalog "Warriors of the Himalayas" (2006)? There's one Tibetan long backsword (dpa dam) in there with the same type of two-ended hairpin (albeit with finer layering).

As far as I know, the Tibetans and Bhutanese kept doing hairpin well into the 20th cent. JP used to say that the Nepalese tended to drop the use of patternwelds for kooks sometime in the 19th cent, when carriage springs, rail steel, and crucible steel recycled from ag implements became widely available -- high quality material, and easy to forge and harden.

Say, has anyone heard from JP recently? 'Hope he's back to health.

Philip

[Atlantia]

Hi Spiral,

I agree with Philip! What an interesting blade. It just goes to show, I've had many a Kuk over the years and I'd never have expected to see such work in the blade.
In fact I am ashamed to say I'd never really thought about pattern welded kuks outside of India.
I guess thats due to growing up with them being commonplace here in the UK and usually made out of old landrover leaf-springs!

And I won't underestimate them because of alloy handles again either!

Can someone please tell me what the advantages of the double hairpin would be in this case?

Or is it simply for show?

Its a very nice weapon Spiral!

Philip:
Thanks mate, I'll d some searches for those

Gene

[spiral]

Thanks Phillip, double hairpin ill remember that...

I dont have a copy of the Met's "Warriors of the Himalayas" Have you a scan or photo of the sword by any chance? It would be good to see.

well this blade I am sure is 20th century but probably pre. ww2 I think. I wonder if a Tibetan smith made it, Rather than a Nepalese?

Thanks Gene, it is a fascinating little piece indeed!

Spiral

[Philip]

Spiral,
I don't have a scanner yet (on the to-do list that keeps growing like a squash vine in summer!), and at any rate the book is still available. Try Paragon Books in Chicago (they have online catalog) or the Met's publications sales desk (accessible thru their website). Paperboud version is $75 as I recall, well worth the money since it's the only book devoted strictly to the subject of Tibetan arms and armor in any language.

[spiral]

Thanks Phillip, Ill see if I can get one flown across the water.

Spiral