Long Kilich

erlikhan · 12th April 2005, 04:52 PM

hi.I recently acquired this kilich or as kilij written in English. It was told , and I had already assumed this as a Sipahi (Ottoman cavalry) kilich blade before 19th c. for sure,designed to use on horse, and it was remounted with a later silver scabbard with remnants of gold gilding, with tughra dating to sultan Abdulhamid, 2nd half of 19th c. All pieces have several stamps. Very heavy blade with 3,5 cms to the hilt, and 4 cms widest point . Any other suggestions?
The cross guard is gold gilded silver too. I havent understood yet, if the red pieces are glass or any class of ruby, and wonder it. The bolster is gigantic. Over 5 cms thick, excluding the rubies or glasses. Blade is 90 cms and total 107 cm. Blade is damascus and I think its tip was broken and reshaped, perhaps 1-1,5 cm. No rust / pitting. There is some inscription figured by dots, I tried to picture it and will appreciate if anybody can read it, if the picture lets it.
http://www.pbase.com/erlik445677/inbox
regards

Tim Simmons · 12th April 2005, 05:49 PM

Hello erlikhan,that is a very handsome blade but from your pictures the cross guard looks like silver plated brass and the same for the scabbard.Am I the only one to think this?Tim

erlikhan · 12th April 2005, 06:59 PM

hi Tim. I checked it after your reply, and am happy to see the silver beneath, when I scratched the yellows on the cross guard. It is plated silver, but the gold is perhaps a low grade, to obtain the classical brass colour or kilich guards? And the scabbard is silver for sure, as it has tughra, and it has yellow remnants in the places of lower height,holes, where it has avoided rubbing and erosion, and the upper parts have no yellow but all silver.
regards

Battara · 12th April 2005, 08:51 PM

Based on the pictures, I have to agree with Tim. Gold does not oxidize, even low grade gold allow (only ever so slightly). What I see is typical of brass. The best way is to go to a jeweler and test the metal on the inside of the scabbard and guard. That way one can determine white metal/white brass from silver.

What is also possible is that the yellowish parts are a type of tarnish on the silver. This would mean age, chemical exposure, and a different alloy mixed in with the silver. This may account for the color on top of the silver even though it is not the color of gold.

erlikhan · 12th April 2005, 09:27 PM

The issue got interesting. I havent heard about the white brass. If the scabbard was white metal, the art on both sides of the scabbard would be impossible to be created. Hardness of that material doesnt let such works and nobody would struck tughra emblem onto white metal to test and approve its grade. It has several stamps on every single piece. Here are the results of my test variations..All suggestions are welcome.
Yellowish only exist in some lower parts especially to edge of both sides,and when stratched, silver color appears below,just like the hand guard (the yellow on scabbard doesnt seem to have any oxidation unlike guard). When the silver color part is stratched, no difference appears. It continues the same color, just the material gets scratched, nothing else. When black oxidation on the silver is scratched, silver colour below.
About the guard, I know gold doesnt oxidate, but then what is it? It is a yellow homogenous layer over silver color for sure, over silver or perhaps white metal as you say. Is there anything like brass or another yellow stuff plating application known??

Tim Simmons · 12th April 2005, 09:53 PM

Hello erilkhan,That is a very fine blade but I think the metals are base metals except for the plating.I think you may be looking at various mixtures of Tin and Copper which can produce a range of colours,white to yellow of a hardness suitable for sword furniture.I have post a picture of white metal modern Tuereg bangles that look like silver.Tim

erlikhan · 12th April 2005, 10:26 PM

Tim, tin-copper means bronze, and I dont think any mixture of them would be silver color.There should be some significant degree of brownish cause copper softens and makes it workable. Pure tin could be silver white perhaps, but tin is very hard and any kind of decorative arts impossible. White metal on guard or the bracelets on the picture is of course possible, but on this scabbard with this kind of art,not.. At least as far as -I think that-I know . But who knows? Thanks for your comments. The healthiest way will be to take it to a silversmith as far as I see after your comments. Better not to sleep than to see nightmares. If not silver, it means false tughra strucking and a cheating. I will take it back to the seller in such a case. it would not be so big problem. I will share the results with you.
regards

Tim Simmons · 12th April 2005, 10:38 PM

Hello erlikhan, I think you have a wonderful sabre, better than a lot of us could afford.I would love something like that.Please do not get too hung up on the metals in the constrution.I do not think you have been cheated and do not act rashly on my comments.Tim

erlikhan · 12th April 2005, 10:55 PM

Thank you very much. Yes in fact silver is usually accepted as something so special, but what would it cost if the artist used even 1 pound of pure silver? Would not add much to total cost. The level of workmanship and general condition must be much more important. But, in past, it was comparably more expensive as was used in coins and was monetarily important.So,was a prestige sign. When there were wars and economical crises,to use high grade silver on items could cause an artist even to get beheaded, and people were urged to bring their silver things to government. So, for antiques, it is perhaps normal that silver has a higher effect on market price of an item than its own raw material price.
regards

erlikhan · 22nd April 2005, 12:03 AM

sorry,took long time but here are the results of jeweller check as i promised.
the cross guard is silver plating over brass as you said. (some say it may be counted as positive ,as shows it is a real militaristic sword with classical hard brass protections of kilij guards ,instead of soft silver)the patinations of brass and silver seems to confuse me. But no mistake about the scabbard. it is high grade silver, and gold plating, most of which has gone and there are only remnants. the grip strap is silver too.
regards

Radu Transylvanicus · 22nd April 2005, 03:55 AM

Hopping to make a your day better, I am posting this very bad picture (with very good intentions...) that I took illegaly at a museum in Timisoara, about Transylvanian history. This type seems to have been popular in the late 18th early 19th century in the Ottoman sphere of influence, in this case a border tampon region , like Transylvania or Banat. The blade and scabbard differs quite a bit from yours but the crossguard is much the same, specially the disputed material ...

ariel · 22nd April 2005, 03:12 PM

Radu,
What is "border tampon region"?
I have a lot of thoughts flashing through my brain, but none are fit to print.

Radu Transylvanicus · 23rd April 2005, 09:39 PM

hahaha

... yes it sounds odd, I guess its a mot-a-mot translated expression meaning ,"buffer zone" a transitional region where influences from two or more larger powers clash or diverge ... dig it ?

erlikhan · 25th June 2005, 10:53 PM

Gone in 60 days. Sold this beauty for a 60 % profit

. I hope I can find a new one with the same specialities and price as soon as possible

Ferguson · 26th June 2005, 12:51 PM

Erlikhan,
That is an absolutely wonderful sword. Thank you for sharing it with us. Your Kilich has a grace and power that is awesome.

Steve Ferguson

Aqtai · 28th June 2005, 03:47 PM

Very nice sword Erlikhan, although it shook up some of my preconceptions.

I had the impression that early Kilijs (or kiliches) had narrower and straighter blades, like the 15th and early 16th century Mamluk kilijs in "Islamic Swords and their makers", but that over time the blades got broader and more curved. As you pointed out, this is a 19th century blade, yet it is quite slender, so my assumptions are all wrong.

12th April 2005, 04:52 PM	#1
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Long Kilich hi.I recently acquired this kilich or as kilij written in English. It was told , and I had already assumed this as a Sipahi (Ottoman cavalry) kilich blade before 19th c. for sure,designed to use on horse, and it was remounted with a later silver scabbard with remnants of gold gilding, with tughra dating to sultan Abdulhamid, 2nd half of 19th c. All pieces have several stamps. Very heavy blade with 3,5 cms to the hilt, and 4 cms widest point . Any other suggestions? The cross guard is gold gilded silver too. I havent understood yet, if the red pieces are glass or any class of ruby, and wonder it. The bolster is gigantic. Over 5 cms thick, excluding the rubies or glasses. Blade is 90 cms and total 107 cm. Blade is damascus and I think its tip was broken and reshaped, perhaps 1-1,5 cm. No rust / pitting. There is some inscription figured by dots, I tried to picture it and will appreciate if anybody can read it, if the picture lets it. http://www.pbase.com/erlik445677/inbox regards Last edited by erlikhan; 12th April 2005 at 08:05 PM.

12th April 2005, 09:27 PM	#5
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	The issue got interesting. I havent heard about the white brass. If the scabbard was white metal, the art on both sides of the scabbard would be impossible to be created. Hardness of that material doesnt let such works and nobody would struck tughra emblem onto white metal to test and approve its grade. It has several stamps on every single piece. Here are the results of my test variations..All suggestions are welcome. Yellowish only exist in some lower parts especially to edge of both sides,and when stratched, silver color appears below,just like the hand guard (the yellow on scabbard doesnt seem to have any oxidation unlike guard). When the silver color part is stratched, no difference appears. It continues the same color, just the material gets scratched, nothing else. When black oxidation on the silver is scratched, silver colour below. About the guard, I know gold doesnt oxidate, but then what is it? It is a yellow homogenous layer over silver color for sure, over silver or perhaps white metal as you say. Is there anything like brass or another yellow stuff plating application known?? Last edited by erlikhan; 12th April 2005 at 09:53 PM.

12th April 2005, 09:53 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Hello erilkhan,That is a very fine blade but I think the metals are base metals except for the plating.I think you may be looking at various mixtures of Tin and Copper which can produce a range of colours,white to yellow of a hardness suitable for sword furniture.I have post a picture of white metal modern Tuereg bangles that look like silver.Tim Attached Images

22nd April 2005, 12:03 AM	#10
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	sorry,took long time but here are the results of jeweller check as i promised. the cross guard is silver plating over brass as you said. (some say it may be counted as positive ,as shows it is a real militaristic sword with classical hard brass protections of kilij guards ,instead of soft silver)the patinations of brass and silver seems to confuse me. But no mistake about the scabbard. it is high grade silver, and gold plating, most of which has gone and there are only remnants. the grip strap is silver too. regards Last edited by erlikhan; 22nd April 2005 at 12:13 AM.

22nd April 2005, 03:55 AM	#11
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Hopping to make a your day better, I am posting this very bad picture (with very good intentions...) that I took illegaly at a museum in Timisoara, about Transylvanian history. This type seems to have been popular in the late 18th early 19th century in the Ottoman sphere of influence, in this case a border tampon region , like Transylvania or Banat. The blade and scabbard differs quite a bit from yours but the crossguard is much the same, specially the disputed material ... Attached Images

12th April 2005, 05:49 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Hello erlikhan,that is a very handsome blade but from your pictures the cross guard looks like silver plated brass and the same for the scabbard.Am I the only one to think this?Tim

12th April 2005, 06:59 PM	#3
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	hi Tim. I checked it after your reply, and am happy to see the silver beneath, when I scratched the yellows on the cross guard. It is plated silver, but the gold is perhaps a low grade, to obtain the classical brass colour or kilich guards? And the scabbard is silver for sure, as it has tughra, and it has yellow remnants in the places of lower height,holes, where it has avoided rubbing and erosion, and the upper parts have no yellow but all silver. regards

12th April 2005, 08:51 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Based on the pictures, I have to agree with Tim. Gold does not oxidize, even low grade gold allow (only ever so slightly). What I see is typical of brass. The best way is to go to a jeweler and test the metal on the inside of the scabbard and guard. That way one can determine white metal/white brass from silver. What is also possible is that the yellowish parts are a type of tarnish on the silver. This would mean age, chemical exposure, and a different alloy mixed in with the silver. This may account for the color on top of the silver even though it is not the color of gold.

12th April 2005, 10:26 PM	#7
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Tim, tin-copper means bronze, and I dont think any mixture of them would be silver color.There should be some significant degree of brownish cause copper softens and makes it workable. Pure tin could be silver white perhaps, but tin is very hard and any kind of decorative arts impossible. White metal on guard or the bracelets on the picture is of course possible, but on this scabbard with this kind of art,not.. At least as far as -I think that-I know . But who knows? Thanks for your comments. The healthiest way will be to take it to a silversmith as far as I see after your comments. Better not to sleep than to see nightmares. If not silver, it means false tughra strucking and a cheating. I will take it back to the seller in such a case. it would not be so big problem. I will share the results with you. regards

12th April 2005, 10:38 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Hello erlikhan, I think you have a wonderful sabre, better than a lot of us could afford.I would love something like that.Please do not get too hung up on the metals in the constrution.I do not think you have been cheated and do not act rashly on my comments.Tim

12th April 2005, 10:55 PM	#9
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Thank you very much. Yes in fact silver is usually accepted as something so special, but what would it cost if the artist used even 1 pound of pure silver? Would not add much to total cost. The level of workmanship and general condition must be much more important. But, in past, it was comparably more expensive as was used in coins and was monetarily important.So,was a prestige sign. When there were wars and economical crises,to use high grade silver on items could cause an artist even to get beheaded, and people were urged to bring their silver things to government. So, for antiques, it is perhaps normal that silver has a higher effect on market price of an item than its own raw material price. regards

22nd April 2005, 03:12 PM	#12
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Radu, What is "border tampon region"? I have a lot of thoughts flashing through my brain, but none are fit to print.

23rd April 2005, 09:39 PM	#13
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	hahaha ... yes it sounds odd, I guess its a mot-a-mot translated expression meaning ,"buffer zone" a transitional region where influences from two or more larger powers clash or diverge ... dig it ?

25th June 2005, 10:53 PM	#14
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Gone in 60 days. Sold this beauty for a 60 % profit . I hope I can find a new one with the same specialities and price as soon as possible Last edited by erlikhan; 26th June 2005 at 01:12 PM.

26th June 2005, 12:51 PM	#15
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	Erlikhan, That is an absolutely wonderful sword. Thank you for sharing it with us. Your Kilich has a grace and power that is awesome. Steve Ferguson

28th June 2005, 03:47 PM	#16
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	Very nice sword Erlikhan, although it shook up some of my preconceptions. I had the impression that early Kilijs (or kiliches) had narrower and straighter blades, like the 15th and early 16th century Mamluk kilijs in "Islamic Swords and their makers", but that over time the blades got broader and more curved. As you pointed out, this is a 19th century blade, yet it is quite slender, so my assumptions are all wrong.