Keris Palembang?

Green · 19th January 2016, 11:45 AM

I have these two keris with the hilt and blade that look of the same type.
The blades of both are significantly thinner compared to other keris types like saras or any types with pamor and they feel light and rather delicate.

Can anyone tell me what type of blade is this? Someone mentioned it as Palembang (sumatera) but others place it as Javanese blade.

I was told that the hilt is Sumateran of Jawa demam style and most likely from marine ivory (instead of elephant) .

The wrangka are different for both keris, one being Javanese Ladrang style and the other Bugis (rather than Malay style which has similar shape of cross piece but more massive and without the pendok). so looks like at least one is a mix and match. I'm wondering which one is more genuine to the blade.

Thanks in advance for your comments and explanation.

David · 19th January 2016, 05:22 PM

The hilts look like Gayo hilts which is Sumatra, but not Palembang. The blades do look Javanese, but it's hard to tell from your photographs. There are many forms of Sumatran blades that more or less follow Javanese pakem.More detailed images would help. IMO both of these keris are mismatched so it's hard to say which is more genuine to the blade. If in fact the blades are Javanese then perhaps the one with the Javanese sheath, but the hilt would still be incorrect.

Would love to see more detailed photos, especially of the hilts which look quite nice.

Green · 20th January 2016, 05:03 AM

David;

Here are more pics of the hilt of the one with the bugis style warangka. The other hilt is virtually the same.

Also attached are pics of this keris compared to a new pandai saras style keris to give an idea of thickness of the blade (v thin cf saras).

David · 20th January 2016, 05:09 AM

What is length of this blade? I still think this blade looks Javanese to me. I like it. I would also agree that this might be marine ivory. Has that look to me.

Green · 20th January 2016, 08:35 AM

David

This one is 12 inch and full length inc hilt 15 inch.
The one with ladrang scabbard is 13.5 inch and full length 17 inch and somewhat thicker and heavier.

Below are the two blades side by side.

Jean · 20th January 2016, 10:23 AM

These Jawa demam hilts are Sumatrese but they do not look to be from Gayo origin to me, the one shown in post# 3 seems to be made from elephant ivory as identified from the longitudinal cracks especially.
The blades are very old and worn and they look javanese indeed.
So there is nothing from Palembang in these 2 mixed krisses?

Regards

David · 20th January 2016, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

These Jawa demam hilts are Sumatrese but they do not look to be from Gayo origin to me, the one shown in post# 3 seems to be made from elephant ivory as identified from the longitudinal cracks especially.

I see what you mean about the cracks Jean. I think my opinion was swayed by the early photos, especially the hilt with the Javanese sheath, which has a warm orange tinge often found in marine ivory. I'd like to some close ups of that hilt.

asomotif · 20th January 2016, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

These Jawa demam hilts are Sumatrese but they do not look to be from Gayo origin to me,

Gayo hilts would be more like this one.

asomotif · 20th January 2016, 10:14 PM

or this one :-)

Jean · 21st January 2016, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I see what you mean about the cracks Jean. I think my opinion was swayed by the early photos, especially the hilt with the Javanese sheath, which has a warm orange tinge often found in marine ivory. I'd like to some close ups of that hilt.

The other hilt may well be from marine ivory indeed but the pics are too small to confirm it. Green, could you please post more detailed pics?
Regards

Jean · 21st January 2016, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Gayo hilts would be more like this one.

Agreed, and thanks for the pics.

Green · 22nd January 2016, 04:35 AM

Jean;

Here are pics of the other hilt. There are some dark brown stains which I'm not sure of what. Some people said that some carvers stain their new white ivory with natural material like tumeric powder to make it look aged and yellow. I'm not sure if mine is so, but looked very old to me based on the extensive cracks to the ivory.

I still don't have the answers to these Qs

1) why are the blades so thin? what style is this kind of thin blades?
2) what style of jawa demam hilt is this, and where are they from. Certainly not peninsula malay style. That i can tell.
3) are these hilts marine ivory or elephant?

David · 22nd January 2016, 05:50 AM

Actually the crosshatching visible in this last photo makes this one look like elephant ivory to me.

Jean · 22nd January 2016, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

Jean;

Here are pics of the other hilt. There are some dark brown stains which I'm not sure of what. Some people said that some carvers stain their new white ivory with natural material like tumeric powder to make it look aged and yellow. I'm not sure if mine is so, but looked very old to me based on the extensive cracks to the ivory.

I still don't have the answers to these Qs

1) why are the blades so thin? what style is this kind of thin blades?
2) what style of jawa demam hilt is this, and where are they from. Certainly not peninsula malay style. That i can tell.
3) are these hilts marine ivory or elephant?

Hello Green,
First I agree with David that the second hilt seems to be made from elephant ivory also and that it is old (about 100 years) and in natural condition.
These 2 (javanese?) blades are common quality pieces and thinned with time because of corrosion/ rust and subsequent cleanings, or ritual cleanings. From the pics my personal guess is that the shortest one may date from 18th century and the other 19th century but I could be wrong, and other opinions are welcome.
This style of Jawa demam hilt is mainly found in West and Central Sumatra, but also in Palembang although not specific from this area. The motif on the belly is said to depict not a crown but the fire motif? The selut of the second hilt is in Palembang style.
Regards

19th January 2016, 11:45 AM	#1
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 312	Keris Palembang? I have these two keris with the hilt and blade that look of the same type. The blades of both are significantly thinner compared to other keris types like saras or any types with pamor and they feel light and rather delicate. Can anyone tell me what type of blade is this? Someone mentioned it as Palembang (sumatera) but others place it as Javanese blade. I was told that the hilt is Sumateran of Jawa demam style and most likely from marine ivory (instead of elephant) . The wrangka are different for both keris, one being Javanese Ladrang style and the other Bugis (rather than Malay style which has similar shape of cross piece but more massive and without the pendok). so looks like at least one is a mix and match. I'm wondering which one is more genuine to the blade. Thanks in advance for your comments and explanation. Attached Images

20th January 2016, 05:03 AM	#3
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 312	David; Here are more pics of the hilt of the one with the bugis style warangka. The other hilt is virtually the same. Also attached are pics of this keris compared to a new pandai saras style keris to give an idea of thickness of the blade (v thin cf saras). Attached Images

20th January 2016, 08:35 AM	#5
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 312	David This one is 12 inch and full length inc hilt 15 inch. The one with ladrang scabbard is 13.5 inch and full length 17 inch and somewhat thicker and heavier. Below are the two blades side by side. Attached Images

20th January 2016, 10:14 PM	#9
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	or this one :-) Attached Images

22nd January 2016, 04:35 AM	#12
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 312	Jean; Here are pics of the other hilt. There are some dark brown stains which I'm not sure of what. Some people said that some carvers stain their new white ivory with natural material like tumeric powder to make it look aged and yellow. I'm not sure if mine is so, but looked very old to me based on the extensive cracks to the ivory. I still don't have the answers to these Qs 1) why are the blades so thin? what style is this kind of thin blades? 2) what style of jawa demam hilt is this, and where are they from. Certainly not peninsula malay style. That i can tell. 3) are these hilts marine ivory or elephant? Attached Images

19th January 2016, 05:22 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	The hilts look like Gayo hilts which is Sumatra, but not Palembang. The blades do look Javanese, but it's hard to tell from your photographs. There are many forms of Sumatran blades that more or less follow Javanese pakem.More detailed images would help. IMO both of these keris are mismatched so it's hard to say which is more genuine to the blade. If in fact the blades are Javanese then perhaps the one with the Javanese sheath, but the hilt would still be incorrect. Would love to see more detailed photos, especially of the hilts which look quite nice.

20th January 2016, 05:09 AM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	What is length of this blade? I still think this blade looks Javanese to me. I like it. I would also agree that this might be marine ivory. Has that look to me.

20th January 2016, 10:23 AM	#6
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	These Jawa demam hilts are Sumatrese but they do not look to be from Gayo origin to me, the one shown in post# 3 seems to be made from elephant ivory as identified from the longitudinal cracks especially. The blades are very old and worn and they look javanese indeed. So there is nothing from Palembang in these 2 mixed krisses? Regards

22nd January 2016, 05:50 AM	#13
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Actually the crosshatching visible in this last photo makes this one look like elephant ivory to me.