Seven village metal?

[Pusaka]

I recall reading some time ago that some keris pendok are made from an alloy of several metals. I do not remember the name given for this alloy but I do recall that the purpose of using this alloy was to insulate or hold the isi in the keris blade, that is to preserve the energies of the keris.


I recall that the alloy was a brass base however small amounts of gold, silver and other metals were added to the melt. I have one pendok that I think may be made of this alloy. Unlike brass or silver it has not tarnished despite being old. I suspect that the small amount of gold added to the molten brass resists rusting.


I recall talking to a silat player who showed me a small knife which was made of a pink colour alloy. He believed that this blade would protect its owner. When I asked what type of metal the blade was made from I got a similar answer, he said that it was actually made from a mixture of several metals and that it was rare.


On another occasion I recall a silat player showing me a belt buckle, again made from a mixture of several metals and also supposedly had the ability to protect its owner. I think he called it “7 village metal”


This practice is also common in India and Tibet. In India there is an alloy called panchaloha which literally means five metal alloy. It has been used since ancient times and is used in India to make jewellery and sacred objects. In Tibet it is the alloy from which Tibetan singing bowls, a type of musical instrument are composed.


Just wanted to know if anyone here had heard of similar storys or perhaps know the name and historical use of this metal in Indonesia.

[klewang]

The name of the alloy you looking for is probably suassa, soeassa, etc.
Check this thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=suasa

[David]

Originally Posted by klewang

The name of the alloy you looking for is probably suassa, soeassa, etc.
Check this thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=suasa

I do not think that Pusaka is thinking about suasa Klewang. Suasa is generally made of only 3 metals (gold, silver and copper) and is very heavy on the copper.
Traditional Tibetan singing bowls are often supposedly made with a 7-metal mixture, though there is no actual supporting evidence to support the claim. The idea of 7 basic metals seems to run through both Eastern and Western currents. In the West they are connected with the 7 astrological planets and alchemy.
The alloy i think you are most likely to see a pendok in is mamas, which is more like a German silver. I have seen suasa used on rare occasions. If anyone has an example of a pendok supposedly made from a 7-metal alloy i would love to see it posted. Can you post a photo of yours Pusaka? This 7-metal concept seems much more popular on the Asian mainland than in Indonesia AFAIK.

[Pusaka]

I cant upload a picture of the pendok right know but it is the same colour as this panchaloha statue, not as yellow as brass but not as rich/golden as gold. It hasn’t tarnished unlike a brass pendok. There is nothing special about the construction of the pendok itself, actually very plain.

I have seen a metallurgical analysis of antique Tibetan singing bowls and it demonstrated that they were made from a complex alloy which contained also quantities of gold and silver.

My understanding is that they were (not modern ones) made from five metals (panchaloha) and westerners made up this concept of them being made of seven metals to fit their own understanding i.e. one metal for each planet.
Just consider the addition of quicksilver to represent the planet mercury and you will know it is impossible i.e. it will boil off before the other metals are even red hot filling the room with mercury vapor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panchaloha

[David]

Oxford University recently conducted a study with the company Himalayan Bowls and found that singing bowls have been made in the Himalayan region for at least 600-800 years, and are likely related to bronze bowls produced in Central and Western Asia. Extensive metallurgical analysis by Himalayan Bowls and Oxford University has discovered that the bowls are made from "high tin bronze," also known as "bell metal bronze," which is a pure mixture of copper and tin. Contrary to popular folklore, there is no evidence to support the claims that singing bowls contain "7 metals" (Joseph Feinstein, 2011).

This seems to dispute even the idea of 5-metal bowls. As for your pendok, it may indeed be suasa if it has a gold look and does not tarnish. Again, not 5 metals, but 3. I have never hear of any 5-metal mixtures being used on pendoks, but maybe someone else has more info.
The photo of the statue is fairly useless in this conversation since the true color of the mixed metals here are unknown. Color shifts dependent upon light in which it is shot and white balance used. Also colors shift from one computer screen to another. Telling us that your pendok looks like the metal in this statue does not bring us any closer to determining the materials that your pendok have been made of. It probably looks different on my screen than on yours. You would have to have it tested to know anything definite.

[A. G. Maisey]

I've got a pendok that is on an old Solo keris that is made from a metal that is the colour of copper, but it has never tarnished like copper. It is definitely not suasa, I have no idea what it is. I've had it about 45 years.

The keris that goes with this keris has some kinatah work that I thought was brass when I bought it, but it also never tarnished, and is not gold.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I've got a pendok that is on an old Solo keris that is made from a metal that is the colour of copper, but it has never tarnished like copper. It is definitely not suasa, I have no idea what it is. I've had it about 45 years.

The keris that goes with this keris has some kinatah work that I thought was brass when I bought it, but it also never tarnished, and is not gold.

Just out of curiousity, why are you so sure it's not suasa?

[A. G. Maisey]

Suasa is just low content rose gold, anything gold is easy to test, this stuff was tested years ago.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Suasa is just low content rose gold, anything gold is easy to test, this stuff was tested years ago.

OK, I see, it's non-tarnishing, but there is no gold content....

[A. G. Maisey]

The pendok looks like copper, but has never tarnished like copper; it has not maintained a bright, polished finish, but the build up of tarnish that we commonly find on copper that has never been polished over an extended period of time is missing.

The kinatah on the blade has a brassy look to it, but again, no cleaning for the time I've had it, just an occasional oiling, and no tarnish. I've had keris with brass kinatah, and in my experience the kinatah has tarnished pretty quickly.

I find this puzzling, but it is fact. Don't ask me to explain it, I cannot, I'm simply reporting it.

[Jean]

I think that the alloy described by Pusaka could be gongso, I saw some very nice pendoks made from this materials but don't own any in my collection. I have some old "singing" bowls and confirm that they did not tarnish at all since 20 years, I can send some pictures if you are interested.
Best regards
Jean

[Jean]

Sorry, I forgot this kris (1.4.4) which has a pendok made from gongso I think (looks like gold, very thick, does not tarnish).
And the pendok of kris 1.4.13 is made from a copper alloy which does not tarnish much as described by Alan.
Best regards
Jean

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by Jean

I think that the alloy described by Pusaka could be gongso, I saw some very nice pendoks made from this materials but don't own any in my collection. I have some old "singing" bowls and confirm that they did not tarnish at all since 20 years, I can send some pictures if you are interested.
Best regards
Jean

Jean I think you hit the nail on the head, I did a google image search for gongso Pendok and have included the an image below. This pendok looks exactly like mine, as you can see it also has not tarnished.

What I also found very interesting is that when I did the search I found many images of gamelan instruments which suggests that musical instruments are also made of this alloy. It would be very interesting now to know what gongso is made from and if it is similar to the metal Tibetan singing bowls are made from.

http://cherykeris.blogspot.com/

EDIT:

Further searching has revealed something quite interesting, gongso metal literally means gamelan metal suggesting that it is indeed the same alloy from which some gamelan instruments are made.

[Pusaka]

This is what the master had to say to the readers of The Bali Times. I learnt Gamelan from a local guru Dewa Nyoman Sura from Pengosekan Village about 5 km from Ubud. In those days, there were no children Gamelan. I hung around the musicians and watched them play. In the 60s there were only two Gamelan groups in Ubud – one belonged to the Ubud Kaja (North) and the other Ubud Kelod (South). Gamelan is the traditional music of Indonesia (specifically Bali and Java). Gamelan means the traditional ensemble of instruments. For example, in Bali Kendang (drum), Reong (kettle gong), Gong Kempur (medium gong) and Kemong (kettle gong). The materials used in the Gamelan are metal and wood. Prior to the use of metal we had bamboo Gamelan as seen in the Gambang Ensemble. The metal used for instruments is made of the Panca Datu – 5 elements of tin, copper, iron, silver and gold.
http://marculyseas.wordpress.com/cat...amelan-master/

[A. G. Maisey]

Gangsa is bronze.

In Central Jawa good quality gamelan instruments are made of bronze, and have traditionally been made of bronze.

The pendok that I mentioned is not made of the bronze that is usually found in Central Jawa, but it could be a bronze, because the composition of bronze is highly variable. New bronze made today is typically about 10% tin and 90% copper, but over the course of history, the metals used to make bronze have varied a lot, I seem to recall reading somewhere that one of the bronzes used in England in early times was made of 8 different metals, what I can remember of this mix is copper, tin, zinc, lead, arsenic.

If the colour of Pusaka's pendok is correct, it is very probably mamas.

There were pendok made of gangsa, or bronze, but I cannot recall ever having handled one.

[rasjid]

Since last year, in jawa tengah we have a lot of pendok gongso for sale. Most of them is jogja style with silver plate in the middle. The price is quite dear due to gold content (very little) and hard to make, unlike silver easier to work on.

Some people selling Bronze pendok (dirty - and called it gongso). If broze; when cleaned we can see the bronze color but with gongso - you still can see the gold color like Suasa (but the one with very low gold content). As you may know suasa also have different colour depending their gold content.
Just my one cents opinion..

Rasjid

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, there's no reason why bronze cannot not have gold in it, I think there could well be as many recipes for bronze as there are uses for it.

By definition, any alloy of copper and tin where copper is the principal metal, and zinc is not the principal secondary metal is a bronze.Once zinc becomes the principal secondary metal you have brass.

Suasa can be accurately translated to English as "rose gold", but gangsa is by definition a bronze, albeit, a bronze that contains a small quantity of gold.

Rasjid, I've had a lot of copper pendok through my hands over the years, and some of those were sold to me as gangsa, but I don't think I've ever had a true gangsa pendok in my hands, at least not that I was aware of.

With suasa I understand that the karat value can go as low as 4K or 5K and still be legitimate suasa, I don't know where the karat value of gangsa would kick in.

I wonder if these gold-like materials are pinchbeck?

Pinchbeck is quite difficult to tell apart from gold, without testing, and it was known in Jawa, because I have Javanese watch chain ornaments and fobs made of it.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by rasjid

Since last year, in jawa tengah we have a lot of pendok gongso for sale. Most of them is jogja style with silver plate in the middle. The price is quite dear due to gold content (very little) and hard to make, unlike silver easier to work on. Rasjid

Attached are examples of such gongso pendoks with silver slorok.
Best regards

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by David

Oxford University recently conducted a study with the company Himalayan Bowls and found that singing bowls have been made in the Himalayan region for at least 600-800 years, and are likely related to bronze bowls produced in Central and Western Asia. Extensive metallurgical analysis by Himalayan Bowls and Oxford University has discovered that the bowls are made from "high tin bronze," also known as "bell metal bronze," which is a pure mixture of copper and tin. Contrary to popular folklore, there is no evidence to support the claims that singing bowls contain "7 metals" (Joseph Feinstein, 2011).

This seems to dispute even the idea of 5-metal bowls. As for your pendok, it may indeed be suasa if it has a gold look and does not tarnish. Again, not 5 metals, but 3. I have never hear of any 5-metal mixtures being used on pendoks, but maybe someone else has more info.
The photo of the statue is fairly useless in this conversation since the true color of the mixed metals here are unknown. Color shifts dependent upon light in which it is shot and white balance used. Also colors shift from one computer screen to another. Telling us that your pendok looks like the metal in this statue does not bring us any closer to determining the materials that your pendok have been made of. It probably looks different on my screen than on yours. You would have to have it tested to know
anything definite.

David the analysis I seen was done by the British Museum in London and the analysis was of old antique Tibetan bowls.
All of the modern bowls are just made of bronze despite what the seller says. The people in the village where they make the majority of modern bowls are very poor, they don’t have piles of gold and silver lying around from which to make bowls.
Basically either the people who sell them are deceived into thinking they are made of seven metals or they know they are not but sell them as such despite this.


A metallurgical analysis, done by the British Museum in London, reveals that the instruments are made of a 12-metal alloy consisting of silver, nickel, copper, zinc, antimony, tin, lead, cobalt, bismuth, arsenic, cadmium and iron. Now a lost art, it appears that this quality of bell bowl cannot be reproduced today.

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Gangsa is bronze.

In Central Jawa good quality gamelan instruments are made of bronze, and have traditionally been made of bronze.

The pendok that I mentioned is not made of the bronze that is usually found in Central Jawa, but it could be a bronze, because the composition of bronze is highly variable. New bronze made today is typically about 10% tin and 90% copper, but over the course of history, the metals used to make bronze have varied a lot, I seem to recall reading somewhere that one of the bronzes used in England in early times was made of 8 different metals, what I can remember of this mix is copper, tin, zinc, lead, arsenic.

If the colour of Pusaka's pendok is correct, it is very probably mamas.

There were pendok made of gangsa, or bronze, but I cannot recall ever having handled one.

A. G. Maisey,did they have a specific name for that bronze made of 8metals or did they just call it bronze?

I had also read that gamelan instruments are just made from bronze however I also know that people also consider the gamelan instruments in the royal courts to have a superior sound.

Master Tjokorda Raka Swastika is of the Ubud Royal family so when he said that the gamelan instruments were made from Panca Datu perhaps he was specifically talking about the instruments in the possession of the royal courts or perhaps this is unique to Bali?

[David]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

A. G. Maisey,did they have a specific name for that bronze made of 8metals or did they just call it bronze?

I had also read that gamelan instruments are just made from bronze however I also know that people also consider the gamelan instruments in the royal courts to have a superior sound.

Master Tjokorda Raka Swastika is of the Ubud Royal family so when he said that the gamelan instruments were made from Panca Datu perhaps he was specifically talking about the instruments in the possession of the royal courts or perhaps this is unique to Bali?

While i would suspect that gamelan made specifically for royal courts would indeed have superior sound i am somewhat doubtful that that sound is the product of gold content specifically, but rather due to those instruments being made by a superior craftsman. I would imagine that gold is added to the mix in these cases more for it's symbolic importance than an sonic one.

[Pusaka]

It is called multiphonics, a percussion instrument made from an alloy consisting of several metals when struck gives out a sound wave consisting of complex harmonics (each metal having its own harmonic).

[A. G. Maisey]

Pusaka, I have absolutely no idea at all of what this particular bronze was called in early England, I don't even know precisely what period, so I don't even know what language was being used.

Today, in the English language, we refer to a very broad range of copper alloys as bronze, I have no idea how these alloys were referred to in old England.

The sound of a gong is dependent upon the material used as well as the skill of the maker. Brass gongs sound very tinny, they have no resonance. Bronze gongs have full rich sound that you can feel in your gut.

I've seen gongs being made on many occasions, it is an incredibly skilful --- and impressive ---process, particularly with big gongs. It is beyond my understanding how the master of gong forge manages to get the tone and pitch exactly right.

[David]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

It is called multiphonics, a percussion instrument made from an alloy consisting of several metals when struck gives out a sound wave consisting of complex harmonics (each metal having its own harmonic).

Yes Pusaka, i am aware of this. My point is that there is no particular sonic reason why one of those metals needs to be gold in order to create a superior sounding gong.

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by David

Yes Pusaka, i am aware of this. My point is that there is no particular sonic reason why one of those metals needs to be gold in order to create a superior sounding gong.

You could also say there is no sonic reason why silver, copper, Iron or any one of the five ingredients should be included!

Perhaps the “panca datu” instruments in the possession of the royal courts are thought to sound better then the bronze ones for the same reason why antique “panchaloha” Tibetan bowls are thought to sound better then modern bronze ones.

[David]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

You could also say there is no sonic reason why silver, copper, Iron or any one of the five ingredients should be included!

Perhaps the “panca datu” instruments in the possession of the royal courts are thought to sound better then the bronze ones for the same reason why antique “panchaloha” Tibetan bowls are thought to sound better then modern bronze ones.

Well, as i posted before there is some doubt according to a study by Oxford University whether there is really any gold content at all in these antique Tibetan bowls. Perhaps the gold content in "pancu datu" gamelan is also a myth. Perhaps it's just the idea of gold that is important to people. Makes them feel good just thinking it's there. What we do know is that Mr. Maisey seem to have a similar pendok to yours that does not tarnish, yet when tested it shows absolutely no gold content. And after all, that is what this thread is about, isn't it, whether or not there is some kind of gold content in your pendok that keeps it from tarnishing. I believe that the only way for you to answer that question is to have your pendok tested as Mr. Maisey did.

[A. G. Maisey]

I'm going to make a comment here that is not directly pertinent to gongs, nor indeed to percussion instruments in general, but to my mind, it is relevant to the the tonal qualities of various metals used in musical instruments.

I've played flute for about 40 years. I can't say I'm much of an artist:- I'm not, and the flutes I have range from terracotta and bambu to a good C flute with a solid silver head joint. Amongst flautists there has been ongoing discussion for as long as I can remember about the relative tonal qualities of the various metals used for flutes. I won't go into these arguments, it could fill this website, but the crux of the matter is this:- James Galway, is recognised as a very good flautist, and he has gone on record as saying that he cannot tell the difference by listening to a CD of his performance which flute he is playing:- gold, silver, silver plate, tin. Other elite flautists can produce the tone of a gold flute from a silver flute by using embouchure variations. It is generally agreed that the important factors are craftsmanship in the making of the flute, and skill in its playing.

Maybe one of the reasons why a silver flute sounds better in the hands of a hack than a factory produced plated flute is because greater care has been taken in its production.

Maybe the reason why brass gongs sound tinny is because greater care is taken in production of bronze gongs.

Maybe extreme care is taken in production of a gong that contains gold, and maybe only very good artists get to play those gongs containing gold, thus they always sound superior.

[Gustav]

Here some excerpts from a text, accompanying Ki Mantle Hood's field gamelan recordings (1957-58), released by a very serious label:

Over the centuries, expensive bronze metal has been associated with royalty, wealthy patrons and land owners. Rural communities of modest economic means use inferior, less costly metals such as brass and iron for gamelan construction.
(...)

The gongsmit is a venerated member of Javanese society entrusted with the very important job of gamelan construction as he works with a medium believed to connect the human world with the spirit world. On the neighbouring island of Bali, the Prakempa, a 19th century palm-leaf manuscript about gamelan, outlines the relation between struck bronze and the human spirit. The text describes the sonic affect of struck bronze on a person's inner qualities (sanubari). This is what alters a person's spirit when gamelan music is heard. It is also what motivates people to learn music. According to this Balinese manuscript, a gongsmit or gamelan teacher must be aware that bronze has the power to affect individual's inner qualities (Hood, Made Mantle - Triguna: a Hindu-Balinese Philosophy for Gamelan Gong Geded Music. Unpublished Dissertation, University of Cologne, 2005).

Bronze instruments have contributed to the "survival" of inimitable tuning systems or laras in today's increasingly homogenised, predominantly western diatonic urban soundscape. Gamelan forged from good quality bronze has resisted some of this onslaught because of the crystallization process of the bronze metal itself.

When Gamelan is newly forged (not cast), gongs and keys are tuned by scraping and cold-hammering their surfaces and undersides until the desired fine-tuning is accomplished. After the entire orchestra is fine-tuned, it is played for about a year, the bronze metal enduring repeated strikes from player's hard wooden or paddled mallets during rehearsal and performance. After approximately a year has passed, a gongsmit will once again scrape and hammer any keys or kettlegongs that need adjustment. Depending on how often the gamelan is played, it will be another four or five years before the instruments require another fine-tuning. With the passing of each year, the mollecules of smelted tin and copper become more dense, compact and the metal begins to crystallize, becoming harder, and thus more stable in holding its tone. By the time a good quality gamelan reaches 30 years of age, its tuning has become quite stable indeed, requiring only small adjustments and occasional key or gong replacements (also Hood (2005:77-79).

This does not mean that laras are perfectly preserved, representing tuning systems hundreds of years old in ancient gamelan orchestras. Each generation of tuners that put their smithing tools in action has different reference ponts, personal preference, and an altering sound-scape surrounding them. However, bronze instruments have the added advantage of relative fixity in tuning, unlike string or wind instruments that mutate with contemporary Indonesia's homogenized palette of musical sound. Despite the decline in gamelan tuning diversity in Central Java, as of yet there is no equal or well- tempered tuning system.

[Gustav]

There are also some keris blades made from different non typical alloys. Is there some information available about this famous keris?

And an interesting older thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002097.html

[A. G. Maisey]

I only know that I was not permitted to buy it because it had already been sold to somebody whom I believe lives in the USA, I do not know who.

I don't know that this keris is so famous, rather I would call a keris that wishes to remain unknown and anonymous.