Bali Ivory Keris (eBay)

[David]

I guess i wasn't the only person watching this sleeper. I was winning this auction down to the last 40 seconds when they made their move. If anyone here won it first i'd like to say
...and then i'd like to say post some pics when you get it to give us a better look. They still got deal here, i just wasn't able to go quite that high.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ht_1298wt_1141

[asomotif]

Not entirely my style, but a vey nice ensemble all the same.
I love the scabbard. Notice that the front of the scabbard is an inlay of a strip of wood.

I wonder what the experts say about dapur etc.
With the current dollar exchange rate this price is a give away imho.
If US sellers would be more willing to sell outside their country they would probably make more money.

A picture for the records.

[Gustav]

A nice blade and beautiful sheath. Hilt (which probably caused many sighs and curses regarding its existence and sellers shipment terms)- so so. Yet I wonder also about this price.

[A. G. Maisey]

This is a decent thing.

I think there is some sort of prohibition on discussion of prices here, so I'm half expecting to get this post wiped, along with a rap over the knuckles, however, since the $$$$ value seems to be of such interest, and since I returned only a few days ago from Jawa-Bali, and since on Thursday of last week I was able to bring my knowledge of on-the-ground Bali prices up to date, here is my comment:-

this keris was given away

what I saw last Thursday inclines me to believe that current local buyers in Bali would expect to pay two to three times the amount that this keris realised

I guess this demonstrates that it is still possible to win on ebay, if you are prepared to gamble.

[David]

No knuckle rap for now, as long as we don't get too specific.
Willem, the inlaid strip of timoho wood is a fairly common practice on Bali sheaths. Since the wood is rare this method gives a nice impression without needing to use too much of it.

[Battara]

What about the carving - modern? And the selut? My other question is the gold on the top?

[David]

Originally Posted by Battara

What about the carving - modern? And the selut? My other question is the gold on the top?

I don't see a selut here. I see what looks like an ivory uwer. I couldn't speak to the age of the hilt. It has patina and color but that's easy to fake. The carving isn't brilliant, but it's OK. It has been damaged and repaired, but that is no proof of age. But frankly i don't have a problem if it is more recent. That is the nature of keris ensembles. The parts get replaced over the years.
The blade look to be old and good to my eyes with the remains of an original Bali stain. What about the gold José? The foil looks to be real gold. I also couldn't speak to the era when it was added, but to my eyes it is tasteful.

[A. G. Maisey]

Everything I can see here is in perfect accord with the advertised period.

I'm not saying by this that I believe everything that has been written, but it is old, and nothing is out of place, nor striking a discordant note.

[Battara]

Very helpful thank you folks.

[Jean]

Nice piece indeed and it would have fetched about 50% more in Europe. However and from the pictures I would not discard the possibility that the dark stains on the cross-piece and the gandar are actually dyed and not original.
Best regards

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

Nice piece indeed and it would have fetched about 50% more in Europe. However and from the pictures I would not discard the possibility that the dark stains on the cross-piece and the gandar are actually dyed and not original.
Best regards

I don't think the photos are really good enough for me to make a determination like that, however, from my own logic i would put forth, why go to the trouble to adding an inlaid veneer of wood down the gandar if you are going to fake this with staining? As i stated before, these timoho veneers are fairly common because it is a rare wood and using less in a veneer down the front is both attractive and economical.

[A. G. Maisey]

They could well be Jean, and this possibility is reflected in my upper and lower levels of estimated value, however, I am just not good enough to know whether this is natural timoho or a stained pattern from net photos.

David's logic is spot on.

[Jean]

Attached is a picture (not very good but sufficient for the needs) of an East Java kris with the hilt made from genuine timoho pelet and the warangka from dyed timoho (I tested it), can you see the difference and tell us which it is? I apparently see the same feature on the Bali kris cross-piece especially, within the limitation of the picture of course.

[David]

Yes Jean, i can clearly see why you would say this about this East Jawa example that you are showing us here. I am afraid that i still cannot say the same based upon the photos provided of the Balinese example and no presentation of other photos of completely different examples will do much to change my mind.
It also still seems odd that someone would go to the trouble of adding a veneer to the front of the gandar to present a fake pelet pattern when they could more easily apply the stain directly on the un-veneered gandar surface.

[asomotif]

Davids logic was also my direct conclusion. You do not make fake veneer.
As for the wrangka. This does not look fake to me already based on the small spots. Fake timoho often only consist of large dark spots and not the smaller spots.
But also the back side if the wrangka gives me a good feeling.
The stains on the back side are consistent with the front.

I am quite convident that the buyer has a very good deal with this keris.

[A. G. Maisey]

Jean, it is simply not possible to determine if timoho is real or simulated from a photograph.

Well done simulated timoho can appear real, real timoho can appear to be simulated. I could show examples of both these cases. The only way to truly know is by close physical examination.