Sword for identification

[Alam Shah]

A sword belonging to a friend, for identification.
It had been keep in his family for 90+ years. Before that, unknown.



The sword in question



A close up of the hilt, made from brass, (I think).
Help in identifying this piece is much appreciated.

[Emanuel]

Hi Alam Shah,

This looks like a French 1831 Artillery sword, one of my favourite swords. Known as the "cabbage cutter", I think it makes a good chopper. The model was adopted and modified by the Americans as the 1832 Foot Artillery Sword. There is a British design as well, but I forgot its name. It's odd that this example doesn't have the requisite markings on the guard. There should be one in the middle of the guard block if French, both sides I think. On the last picture there seem to be faint traces of one, possibly ground off?

I've been looking for an 1831 at good price for a long time. Can't seem to find any bargains.

Regards,
Emanuel

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by Manolo

Hi Alam Shah,

This looks like a French 1831 Artillery sword, one of my favourite swords. ...

Thanks a lot Emanuel. Bingo, that the one, I guess.

[Dom]

Looks like a French 1831 Army (sorry Manolo) model sword,
in service until 1866 in French army,
then used by fire-fighters, national guards until 1870.
This sword appear during the reign of "roi des Français" Louis-Philippe 1er,
and then in used during the Second Empire, the one of Napoléon III

f.y.i. Manolo
copy - new
http://www.wkc-solingen.de/newshop/francais/Glaive.html
in sale - Réf 10-252
http://www.cedric-rolly-armes.fr/armes-blanches.php
in fact, made a search as following "vends glaive modele 1831"

à +

Dom

[Emanuel]

Glaive d'infanterie serait peut-être plus précis mais "artillery sword" va assez bien en englais

I'll read up some more on the model but I do believe it was the infantry artillery that got the model, not just any army corps. English site:
http://www.arms2armor.com/Swords/fren1831.htm

I found a number of replicas as well Dom, but I'd like an old one. The newer ones are hangers, the old were used

Emanuel

[Dom]

mea culpa, Emanuel is correct
I wasn't control enough my subject
and the facts are ;
during Empire, French Artillery was consisted of;
- foot artillery
- horse artillery
the first following on foot the second, who was with canons pulled by horses,
between them, uniforms was significantly differents

Emanuel .... the second link didn't concern a copy, but an original,
I dunno if the price requested is realistic

à +

Dom

[Jim McDougall]

Nice work Emanual and Dom!!!
Its really great to see detailed and informative identification responses like this, and so quickly, on regulation swords which of course are far outside the standard weapons discussed here. I like seeing the range expanded once in a while!
Nicely done, and thank you !

All the best,
Jim

P.S. Emanuel, have you tried LeHussar in France?

[katana]

Hi Emanuel,
I too having been waiting for a bargain priced example ....I like the 'classical' shape.....afterall it was 'copied' design from the Roman Gladius.
However, am I correct in saying that 'cabbage cutter' was a derogatory name ....as the sword is relatively heavy with poor 'balance'.


Regards David

[Jim McDougall]

Hi David,
That term was indeed intended derisively, and while these neoclassic swords lent well to rather pretensious allusion, they were not especially well balanced nor effective.
On that note, I recall an instance some time ago concerning the M1832 U.S. artillery sword, when one was unearthed during construction excavation somewhere in New York. While I'm pretty sure the well known pulp newspapers were not involved, a very wide eyed archaeologist proclaimed he had found evidence of Romans in America!!
Soon afterwards the excavated 'gladius' was correctly identified by a better informed observer, much to the chagrin of the proclaimer.

Best regards,
Jim

[katana]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi David,
That term was indeed intended derisively, and while these neoclassic swords lent well to rather pretensious allusion, they were not especially well balanced nor effective.
On that note, I recall an instance some time ago concerning the M1832 U.S. artillery sword, when one was unearthed during construction excavation somewhere in New York. While I'm pretty sure the well known pulp newspapers were not involved, a very wide eyed archaeologist proclaimed he had found evidence of Romans in America!!
Soon afterwards the excavated 'gladius' was correctly identified by a better informed observer, much to the chagrin of the proclaimer.

Best regards,
Jim

Hi Jim
thanks for the clarification.
It seems that the 'wide eyed archaeologist' should have 'unearthed' some researched facts before making his claims

All the best

David

[Emanuel]

Hi All,

Dom you're right about the artillery division - I only considered the foot. The first time I tried the link it wouldn't load, but now it worked. It looks like the frog is a replacement. Here I saw 1831s go for $350 Canadian, quite a bit cheaper than 360EU. Now I wonder what prices are like in France, Germany, etc... on the street in small antique shops.

David, when I handled the 1831 it felt like a robust chopper, perhaps akin to a Moro barong. Made for chopping, and chopping well I think. The term was derogatory because the sword had no finesse, one didn't have to be a skilled fencer to use it I imagine.

Jim I didn;t know about Le Hussard, thank you for that link. They ahve some 1831s listed at 270EU. Not bad perhaps, but at "bargain" I want less The cheapest I saw was 250CAD here in To. Should have grabbed it

Cheers!
Emanuel