Is it madness or are we all stinking rich?

[ariel]

Look at the prices and tell me what happened with the market: does it mean that our collections suddenly increased 3-5 fold in value?
http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/...150119247&rd=1
http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/...150119208&rd=1
http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/...150119195&rd=1
http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/...150119187&rd=1
http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/...150119167&rd=1

[Tim Simmons]

The market is not omnipotent. Research is so important. The first link is testament to the markets potential misguidance all be it quite an interesting item. One has to think of an objects value in a much more broad spectrum of market venues and thier potential customers grounding in the items on sale.

[kronckew]

i think tim means it is madness AND we are all stinkin' rich

[Dajak]

What is going on that top piece s stay in collections
and there is only medium to les stuff become standard
and sell s for good (to high) price s .



Ben

[Bill M]

YO! Preparing eBay ads for a few Moro and other pieces!

Stinkingly mad rich sounds good to me!

[Dajak]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

The market is not omnipotent. Research is so important. The first link is testament to the markets potential misguidance all be it quite an interesting item. One has to think of an objects value in a much more broad spectrum of market venues and thier potential customers grounding in the items on sale.

The problem is only if people that don t now much about what quality and low end stuff is keep on buying ,
the prices go up .
It is easy with the stuff no buyers no market .

And people do this and buy from this people .
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4987

Ben

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by Dajak

The problem is only if people that don t now much about what quality and low end stuff is keep on buying ,
the prices go up .
It is easy with the stuff no buyers no market .

And people do this and buy from this people .
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4987

Ben

Good point Ben. Do you have an answer?

I got on a vendetta several years ago contacting people who were buying fake Chinese swords. I soon realized that most people really did not care if it was fake or not. They bought the artificially patinated sword. Sometimes cleaned off the carefully applied rust, sometimes didn't and just hung it on the wall.

They were satisfied, even happy with their purchases. They did not buy another sword. One was enough. $500-$600 was fine for a wall decoration. Many did not belive they were fake, that they had actually bought a rare Ming dynasty sword.

As far as I can tell, there are only a very few people who do care (us) if these weapons are fake, composite or hybrids.

Add to this the fact that there are a small finite number of authentic pieces. And there are many village craftsmen producing weapons in the same manner their ancestors made them. Are these authentic?

I have asked experts why they don't publish books about how to spot fakes. They have told me that the fake makers would then adjust their craft to make pieces that would be even harder to distinguish from the authentic pieces.

Even museums make huge mistakes. This has been pointed out on this forum many times.

And collectors who have studied in certain areas can easily be fooled in other areas by fakes. I have been studying Japanese swords, an unbelievably complex area of microscopic differences making huge differences in value. These collectors have incredibly keen powers of observation.

People with quarter of a million dollar Japanese swords with fake tourist Balinese keris and Chinese armor, fooled by fakers.

So.

Hopefully any collecting venue will have increases in prices. I like it that my collection is worth more. A few years back a fairly good Moro kris was $200. Now you may pay $500-$600.

This is not an announcement, but I plan to put some of my lower end pieces on eBay, I am finding better bargains with dealers and want to upgrade my collection. I would also like for some other people to enjoy pieces that I do not regularly handle.

And as the reach of the Internet expands, especially eBay, prices do go up. Where prices increase, there will be people making fakes.

I am buying from dealers and collectors who I either have a relationship with -- have sterling reputations or who I can visit and hold the pieces before buying.

Like everyone else here, I have bought un-authentic pieces on eBay. Some were so bad that I threw them away. I have also found some real sleepers.

But the bottom line is that I am the one I have to please. I appreciate this forum and the people who post here. I have learned a lot and continue to learn each day.

[rand]

The deluge of fakes is exactly why objects with provinece retain a greater value than their unpunlished counterparts. When items reach a high value copies/fakes begin to be made and sold to the unsuspecting Buyer.

As values get even higher the modern forgeries get more sophisticated to the point of buying old farm implements from the same time period as a sword and then forging a blade from that steel. High end European rapiers are the perfect example of this happening, even astute dealers are wary. For that reason items with provinence to a European collection prior to 1920 carry a much greater value.

The Islamic arms have been fairly free of this simply because there is just too much work on making a copy, also the fact that the steels are until recently immune form duplication.

The Indonesian arms seem to be in the early stages of this process. Pommels are especially easy target for a forger looking to inflate value. Thats why an arena such as this forum is of such great benefit.

Personally I do not understand why we cannot talk about any object, even if it is offered for sale. In reality everything is available for the right price. When I see an obvious fake offered its makes me feel sorry for the possible Buyer who made end their collecting after one bad purchase.

Hence the value of an astute Dealer, they are an asset to the collecting community.

Dry Roads,

rand

[Dajak]

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

Good point Ben. Do you have an answer?



Add to this the fact that there are a small finite number of authentic pieces. And there are many village craftsmen producing weapons in the same manner their ancestors made them. Are these authentic?

These are not authentic if they make them the same as long time before because the simple answer these are not from the time period that they orginally made in.
repro weapons are these.

Originally Posted by rand

The deluge of fakes is exactly why objects with provinece retain a greater value than their unpunlished counterparts. When items reach a high value copies/fakes begin to be made and sold to the unsuspecting Buyer.

As values get even higher the modern forgeries get more sophisticated to the point of buying old farm implements from the same time period as a sword and then forging a blade from that steel. High end European rapiers are the perfect example of this happening, even astute dealers are wary. For that reason items with provinence to a European collection prior to 1920 carry a much greater value.

The Islamic arms have been fairly free of this simply because there is just too much work on making a copy, also the fact that the steels are until recently immune form duplication.

The Indonesian arms seem to be in the early stages of this process. Pommels are especially easy target for a forger looking to inflate value. Thats why an arena such as this forum is of such great benefit.

Personally I do not understand why we cannot talk about any object, even if it is offered for sale. In reality everything is available for the right price. When I see an obvious fake offered its makes me feel sorry for the possible Buyer who made end their collecting after one bad purchase.

Hence the value of an astute Dealer, they are an asset to the collecting community.

Dry Roads,

rand

It is not alowed to discus what is on ebay here .
But If they change this rule a lot off forum members would
be better informed what they buy on ebay.
In my opinion It would be better if they can change the rule but I don t now If they wanna do it.

Sometimes provonance found be later ,
I did buy this container a few years ago

By one that I consider the best Tribal Art dealer That I know (my Oldman Jimpul came from him ) very good trust full man I can buy from him whit out seeing the object .

A few weeks ago I did get this article in my Hands
it shows that it was collected between 1898 -1899



Ben

[Andrew]

Rand and Ben:

The prohibition against discussing active auctions is one born of self-preservation for this forum. Two staff members (myself and Mark) are US lawyers, and all-too familiar with the litigious nature of our society.

As you've noted, dicussion of active auctions can affect the outcome of those auctions, for good or for bad, depending on one's perspective. This interference can give rise to a number of legal causes of action, including Tortious Interference and Defamation.

For instance, a seller may have a sale or reputation ruined. Even if the result was justified, a lawsuit or claim can be brought, and defending even frivolous claims is prohibitively expensive and annoying. So much so that it could conceivably shut down a small operation like this.

Andrew

[CourseEight]

Originally Posted by Dajak

These are not authentic if they make them the same as long time before because the simple answer these are not from the time period that they orginally made in.
repro weapons are these.

I have to respectfully disagree with this argument as stated, though perhaps not the actual meaning. I personally think the most important point in defining "authenticity" is simply what purpose the creator of a given object had when he created it. If a village craftsman is creating a certain type of object for a member of his people, in the manner it has traditionally been made, to be used as his people have traditionally used it, I would not consider this to be a reproduction.

Obviously with certain types of objects, specifically weapons created strictly for combat, it is not possible to make a truly authentic item. However even today, weapons used for hunting, for parade/festival, for talismanic purposes, or for day-to-day utility can be made to serve the same purpose they did 100 years ago. I doubt very much the people using them consider them to be reproductions, just not as old. This is not to say that these are in any way as valuable as older examples, which for the most part it is assumed have seen more authentic usage. But if a weapon was specifically created for some gentleman during his visit to some village 150 years ago, it would have seen no more usage than one created today specifically for me. What does this say about the autenticity even of objects in old collections? I don't know...

I haven't been collecting that long, so the above is worth what it's worth!

--Radleigh

[Tim Simmons]

This is quite amusing and interesting. It is fetishism, commodity fetishism. goes beyond Marx and taken up by more modern thinkers. Rather like 4x4's {SUV} in largely Victorian London roads. I must admit I am weak and need to hammer a few more nails in my fetish doll . I would like an old one of those .

Emergency edit just in case anyone google "fetish doll" you had better google- Congo fetish doll.

[Dajak]

Originally Posted by CourseEight

I have to respectfully disagree with this argument as stated, though perhaps not the actual meaning. I personally think the most important point in defining "authenticity" is simply what purpose the creator of a given object had when he created it. If a village craftsman is creating a certain type of object for a member of his people, in the manner it has traditionally been made, to be used as his people have traditionally used it, I would not consider this to be a reproduction.

Obviously with certain types of objects, specifically weapons created strictly for combat, it is not possible to make a truly authentic item. However even today, weapons used for hunting, for parade/festival, for talismanic purposes, or for day-to-day utility can be made to serve the same purpose they did 100 years ago. I doubt very much the people using them consider them to be reproductions, just not as old. This is not to say that these are in any way as valuable as older examples, which for the most part it is assumed have seen more authentic usage. But if a weapon was specifically created for some gentleman during his visit to some village 150 years ago, it would have seen no more usage than one created today specifically for me. What does this say about the autenticity even of objects in old collections? I don't know...

I haven't been collecting that long, so the above is worth what it's worth!

--Radleigh

Hi Radleigh maybe read this

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4987


then you understand maybe what I ment to say about this .

And Andrew I do not now the laws in the USA but if the Forum is not an public thing because you need to be member I was thinking that it could be no problem .
And if we talk after the action bad over the sale and the item it can harm the seller too .
And is this than no problem ???


Ben

[spiral]

Originally Posted by kronckew

i think tim means it is madness AND we are all stinkin' rich

Top repley, wheres my share though?

Originally Posted by Dajak

What is going on that top piece s stay in collections
and there is only medium to les stuff become standard
and sell s for good (to high) price s .
Ben

Been happing for years, mroe & more each year in England as well, its drying up.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

YO! Preparing eBay ads for a few Moro and other pieces!
Stinkingly mad rich sounds good to me!

Good Luck!

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

I soon realized that most people really did not care if it was fake or not. They bought the artificially patinated sword. Sometimes cleaned off the carefully applied rust, sometimes didn't and just hung it on the wall.

As far as I can tell, there are only a very few people who do care (us) if these weapons are fake, composite or hybrids.

I have asked experts why they don't publish books about how to spot fakes. They have told me that the fake makers would then adjust their craft to make pieces that would be even harder to distinguish from the authentic pieces.

I am buying from dealers and collectors who I either have a relationship with -- have sterling reputations or who I can visit and hold the pieces before buying.

I have also found some real sleepers.
.

[spiral]

Sometimes Bill When you point out someone didnt have a clue what they were doing, im my expierience they take it as an insult to thier masculinity, knowledge etc. & wish to play shoot the messenger. I deal with loads of them with fake 1917 kukri, & those with delusians & fantasys about what theve found.etc..

re. sharing info. many "expert"s are still buying & dealing, fools buying junk often means there not bidding on the real stuff & they still get a top profit margin.

Sadley top dealers seem as honest as thier customers knowledge on any given item as far as I can see, but hell that not new in the arms trade.

as for the sleepers thats what its all about, in my book.Otherwise the funs gone.

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Emergency edit just in case anyone google "fetish doll" you had better google- Congo fetish doll.

strangly not to bad if you just click images with it, stuff from chad etc.

Spiral

[asomotif]

back to the original question from Ariel.

Please bear in mind these are auctions where also live floor bidders are involved. Things can go pretty wild at auctions.
You only need 2 persons with enough cash and a certain object in mind to have this happening. I have seen objects going away at more than 10 times the realistic value where even the auctioneer was openly amazed and shaking its head over the price that was bid.(and he was getting 25% of it both ways )

This does not mean we are all stinking rich (yet).

But being able to spent money on old iron objects without any real purpose than to fill the empty space in my oversized house.
Yes, that can be considered rich.

By the way, nice bamboo container Ben !

[Bill M]

Just one of the many things I respect about this Forum is that people here are willing to discuss validity and origin of pieces that may challenge -- in a very beneficial way -- time honored concepts.

Two particular men (and there are many others) on this Forum have my utmost respect as researchers and gentlemen.

I had always heard that Parang Naburs were the province of the Sea Dayaks, and then VVV (Micheal) put forth the idea that they are more in the arena of the Phillippines.

I also have a pair of the aluminum handled khuks that were supposed to have been made for the troops of the Maharajah of Jodhpur, and a man whom I respect as one of the greatest khukri experts active today has pretty much convinced me that this is untrue. The research he has done very much supports his assertion.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Dajak

And Andrew I do not now the laws in the USA but if the Forum is not an public thing because you need to be member I was thinking that it could be no problem .
And if we talk after the action bad over the sale and the item it can harm the seller too .
And is this than no problem ???


Ben

Hi Ben. Actually, this is a public forum, open for viewing by anyone with internet access. You need be a member only if you wish to post.

As for comments after an auction closes, believe me, that is a slippery slope we are trying to negotiate. Certainly interference with an auction is thus avoided, and we urge all members to be circumspect with regard to comments about a seller. Ultimately, everyone is responsible for their own comments, but our rules do address this:

Discussion of auctions should never include editorial comments about the seller. Please take those discussions to private e-mail.

Best,
Andrew

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

Two particular men ... on this Forum have my utmost respect as researchers and gentlemen.

Oh, stop it Bill. You're embarrassing me.

[Dajak]

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

I had always heard that Parang Naburs were the province of the Sea Dayaks, and then VVV (Micheal) put forth the idea that they are more in the arena of the Phillippines.

.

There is no proof of this Bill .

The malay introduced the Nabur into the coast of Borneo and some off the Iban Pirates used this weapon the one that are made in Borneo look somethimes like Jimpuls there is an rare straight nabur that was in my collection did had an lot off Iban influence
And now in American hands.

Ben

[VVV]

Seems to be a bit misunderstanding here about the so called Nabur issue again.
It all unfortunately started with Stone's book.
The picture in Stone shows a Luzon blade and I wasn't the one who figured out exacty where it came from.
Only that it wasn't from Borneo, or had any other Malay origin, and my guess was the Philippines.
Other forumites concluded to which area in the Philippines.
The text from Stone however was based on a misunderstanding of a quote from Ling Roth about the Parang Nyabur.
The sword Ben refers to - the Beladah Belabang - is of Malay, non-Dayak origin, and is not a Sea Dayak traditional sword.
Actually I haven't seen any of those collected at all even close to any Sea Dayak territory.
Ben, if you found new evidence to show that this is incorrect please state a reliable and old enough source for this?

Michael