Questions about Tabar axe

[Drabant1701]

I have a large Tabar axe, 96 cm long. When i looked on the Internet for information about it I found an exampel that looks very much like mine: http://armsandantiques.com/huge-late...arzin-axe-i206
The only difference i can see is that theirs ha had the cutting edge grinded down around 1 cm.

I have no doubt that these are people how know what they are talking about, I would however like a second opinion as to age and origin, is it late 18th century and persian? If someone by chance can read the text on the axe I hope you can share with me what it says. On the side of the axe head there is a small mark (?) that looks like its been put there on purpose, I took a close up of it in case anyone seen that type of mark before, it could also be a repair or random flaw.

Thank you for your time.

[Blacksmith]

Hello, I have seen these kind of axes with different kind of blade styles and with same haft style and they werw all mentioned to be made for the Paris World Exhibition in the beginning of the 1900. So not made for the actuall use.

[Drabant1701]

Originally Posted by Blacksmith

Hello, I have seen these kind of axes with different kind of blade styles and with same haft style and they werw all mentioned to be made for the Paris World Exhibition in the beginning of the 1900. So not made for the actual use.

You are right about it not being for actual use. First of all its not sharpened. Second its to big and heavy to actually fight with, you could only strike once or twice before you got exhausted.

That it would have been made for the Paris exhibition is not impossible. I can see it being made as an export piece to europe and america in the mid to late 19 century, in the same matter that kula khuds and sipars shields where made for export. But Im really not experienced enough to date it accurate, that is why I ask for other opinions. Its not that the age matters, I like the axe anyway, but I like to catalog the items in my collection as correctly as possible

Some other reflections: If there are two identical, there are more out there.
A piece of the edge has broken of, and had probably done so on the other one to since the edge was grinded down. So its hard iron. If you where to chisel something that detailed that is only for display why choose iron that hard. It could be made of cast iron.

What strikes me as odd is that the decoration is asymmetrical in lot of places, its small details but if you look closely on top ad bottom the differences are quite obvious.

While researching i found a axe head in "Lexicon of arms and armor from Iran" by Manouchehr page 529. It shows an axe (see picture) that shares design features with this one. The odd pointy egg shape thing, the borders around the edges and the on the back. Its more similar on the reverse side (not in picture).

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Drabant1701

You are right about it not being for actual use. First of all its not sharpened. Second its to big and heavy to actually fight with, you could only strike once or twice before you got exhausted..........................Some other reflections: If there are two identical, there are more out there.

Your right, I have seen several very similar examples of these socketed axe, the ones that had a shaft all had a tassle attached near the top. I have also heard that they were used for some sort of display etc and may have actually been manufactured in Europe but I have no proof of this. Here is one that I have, it has been dipped / silvered in some way, very heavy and unsharpened.

[Drabant1701]

@Estcrh
Thanks for your replay. Your idea about them being made in europe made me look into other regions then Persia. I found a handful of battle axes that are said to be made in India with different heads but similar shaft construction. I found several on Herman historica and one on Ebay.


Although the decoration differs I think the style and construction looks very similar. This could indicate that the Tabar axes discussed in the thread is also from this indian region.

[ariel]

It is my impression that the idea of a relatively modern and/or souvenir origin of many Indian/ Indo-Persian examples of arms and armor traditionally attributed to 17-18 century is beginning to get firm hold ( at least here).

In the absense of reliable dating and established provenance we may have to give a fresh look at our collections and, certainly, at the items offered for sale, no matter what authorities pronounce their ancient origin.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

It is my impression that the idea of a relatively modern and/or souvenir origin of many Indian/ Indo-Persian examples of arms and armor traditionally attributed to 17-18 century is beginning to get firm hold ( at least here).

In the absense of reliable dating and established provenance we may have to give a fresh look at our collections and, certainly, at the items offered for sale, no matter what authorities pronounce their ancient origin.

There is no such thing as an "expert", some people just have a little more knowledge.

These types of socketed axe may not even be Indo-Persian, let alone Persian. This brings into question the method used to make them, are these actually chisled or was some other method used such as machining?

HUGE late 18th C. Persian Safavid Chiselled Tabarzin Axe. The largest of this type of axe I've seen. Very finely chiselled parade axehead, with fine chiselling throughout. This was likely a parade piece. The axehead is made in one piece with the metal part of the shaft or it was welded together at some point. The shaft appears to be a Victorian shaft made for this axe, and the entire piece was lacquered as well. The quality of the chiselling on the axehead is some of the best I've seen, and coupled with the size it's a one of a kind axe. See the comparison pictures with the normal sized axes for sale as well. Overall length is 38", axehead is 8" in length and 4" blade length.

[ariel]

Well, the geschtalt is clearly Persian/Indo-Persian. The identical decorative patterns suggest mass production.
IMHO, the likelihood that they were made in Europe is vanishingly low ( more likely, zero), unless you have evidence to the contrary. New shafts would not count as such.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

Well, the geschtalt is clearly Persian/Indo-Persian. The identical decorative patterns suggest mass production.
IMHO, the likelihood that they were made in Europe is vanishingly low ( more likely, zero), unless you have evidence to the contrary. New shafts would not count as such.

Ariel, from what I have seen the shafts are original equipment, they are all very similar and all have that red tassle at the top. Now if you look at known examples of Indo-Persian axe I do not think that socketed axe are very common but these strange examples all have a socket. There is no reason to think that these could not have been made in Europe or elsewere outside of the countries we normally associate this type of axe with.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

In the shape of axe at #1 ~ I see Tabar saddle axe form.(Tabarzin). Persian, though the style often refers to Indo Persian. Often we get somewhat confused over other axe types namely Qajar single and two headed axes which we often observe as Parade axe form although, some of these may well be battle axes as well...One below, top, is a 3 pounder clearly meant to inflict damage. Goantiques states;

Quote''Outstanding quality Indo Persian war axe -Tabar from the Qajar Dynasty period, circa 1750. 7 inches (17 ½ cm) long, large steel crescent blade, most likely Damascus steel wootz is highly decorated on both sides with two Persian aristocrats sitting beside a tree and greatly inlaid in gold koftgari. The loop on the middle has cartouches with Arabic calligraphy. The back of the blade is decorated in arabesque and silver inlaid. The octagonal, steel haft is gold inlaid and cut in a swirled pattern. The axe is very heavy compared to similar Persian axes from the Qajar Dynasty, and is weighing 3 pounds. References: “Weapons- an International Encyclopedia form 5000 BC to 2000 AD” by David Harding, London 1980 + 1990. Overall length: approximately 29 ¾ inches (76 cm)." Unquote.

Others of the single/two head form with these flanged blades are often seen carried by wandering Sufi; thus I understand it as a Sufi badge of office as well.
Shown also some Sufi with various axe types. Other pictures of Axes/Qajari forms...etc

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Ah! Artwork !!!! Note also that an axe with a point was ideal for thrusting at close range and that axes came in weird and wonderful shapes. The haft could also conceal a spike weapon..

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Tying in the ancient religious form or belief it is interesting how many Gods are illustrated with an axe heres one from http://www.artnindia.com/product/par...ty-painting-4/... QUOTE"Parasurama, also known as the “axe-wielding Rama,” was the sixth incarnation (Avatar) of Lord Vishnu . He was born into a Brahmin or priestly family but had the immense physical power and killer instinct than a Kshatriya or the warrior class. Parasurama was the son of the pious saint, Jamadagni. Lord Shiva , pleased by his devotion and penance awarded him an axe, his super weapon. Parashurama is considered ‘Chiranjeevi’ or immortal and that he is said to rule until ‘Maha Pralaya’ or the end of the world."UNQUOTE.

In black garb is a Sikh soldier ( Akali Sikh warrior) with amongst other weapons ...an axe...plus quoits in a special head dress...plus Torador and powder flask and in the large dramatic painting an axe is seen wielded in the centre at the top of the picture...
I selected the lady in the picture as she has a fan shaped like an axe...

[ariel]

Originally Posted by estcrh

There is no reason to think that these could not have been made in Europe or elsewere outside of the countries we normally associate this type of axe with.

There is also no reason to think that Kennedy could not have been killed by Maori firefighters.

Any positive evidence that your suggestion might be true?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

There is also no reason to think that Kennedy could not have been killed by Maori firefighters.

Any positive evidence that your suggestion might be true?

Ariel, find me an image of a real antique Indo-Persian socketed axe. I am only repeating what I have read, but since these axe do not follow the usual construction methods, and they seem to have been mass produced in a much larger than average size it is not beyond reason that they may have been made for a particular purpose. If there were made in India or Persia/Iran etc why is their construction method so different than the axe normally made in these countries????

[Drabant1701]

I found some axes online that are mounted with shafts in similar matter as the large axes. Theay are refered to as being from india. And although the large axes are persian in apperance they may well be made in India. They most accurate (and safely boring) term form them would most likely be Indo-Persian.

Regarding when it was made the safe term would be 19th century. But one has to ask the question when was there a demand for this type of decorative weapon. I still think that this axe (large one) was made for export as an display piece for someone in europe or america. They may have been used for some specific purpose, such as world fairs (first on in London 1851) or even sold at retailer. My guess is that its made mid to late 19th century, but that is just my opinion.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

For form...certainly on the Persian Tabarizin or saddle hatchet...saddle axe.... I would observe http://www.caravanacollection.com/pr....html#more-425 bearing in mind that axes similar to these were produced up to and beyond the Qajar Dynasty ...up to 1923 and beyond... and during that time were used as parade axes. I look for axe manufacturers in that late period but nothing yet... however I see no reason why they could not have continued in production in Iran but not forgetting that they were used in several neighboring countries as announced by the word Tabarizin spanning across the spectrum ... viz;

Tabar (axe)
Ammended in italics From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Indian

(Sind) tabar battle axe, late 18th century or earlier, crescent shape 5-inch-long head with a square hammer opposite of the blade, 22-inch-long steel haft, the end of the haft unscrews to reveal a 5-inch or longer slim blade. Heavily patinated head and handle with traces of engraving. India

During the 17th and 18th centuries, the tabar battle axe was a standard weapon of the mounted warriors of India, Afghanistan and what is now Pakistan. Made entirely of metal or with a wood haft, it had a strongly curved blade and a hammer-headed poll and was often decorated with scroll work. Sometimes a small knife was inserted in the tabar's hollow haft.

The tabar (also called tabarzin, which means "saddle axe") is a type of battle axe. The term tabar is used for axes originating from the Ottoman Empire, Persia, Armenia, India and surrounding countries and cultures. As a loanword taken through Iranian Scythian, the word tabar is also used in most Slavic languages as the word for axe (e.g. Russian: топор).


Persia

The tabarzin (saddle axe) (Persian: تبرزین‎‎; sometimes translated "saddle-hatchet") is the traditional battle axe of Persia (Iran). It bears one or two crescent-shaped blades or the well known powerful stubby axe shape with hammer head on one side and heavy axe on the other. The long form of the tabar was about seven feet long, while a shorter version was about three feet long. What makes the Persian axe unique is the less broad handle, which is light and usually metallic.

The tabarzin was sometimes carried as a symbolic weapon by wandering dervishes (Muslim ascetic worshippers).The word tabar for axe was directly borrowed into Armenian as tapar (Armenian: տապար) from Middle Persian tabar,as well as into Proto-Slavonic as "topor" (*toporъ), the latter word known to be taken through Scythian,and is still the common Slavic word for axe.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Ariel, find me an image of a real antique Indo-Persian socketed axe. I am only repeating what I have read, but since these axe do not follow the usual construction methods, and they seem to have been mass produced in a much larger than average size it is not beyond reason that they may have been made for a particular purpose. If there were made in India or Persia/Iran etc why is their construction method so different than the axe normally made in these countries????

No argument against use/production of Tabars in Turkey or Indo-Persian areal. No argument that the ones shown here are of an Indo-Persian or just Persian pattern and decoration. No argument that they might have been made locally late 19 or even early 20th century.

But you were mentioning Europe. Any evidence that some Spanish, French or any other European company produced them en masse for souvenir purposes? This is my only question.

And as for examples, google "scythian axe", ancestors of Persians.
You will find tons of socketed examples dating to BCE

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

No argument against use/production of Tabars in Turkey or Indo-Persian areal. No argument that the ones shown here are of an Indo-Persian or just Persian pattern and decoration. No argument that they might have been made locally late 19 or even early 20th century.

But you were mentioning Europe. Any evidence that some Spanish, French or any other European company produced them en masse for souvenir purposes? This is my only question.

And as for examples, google "scythian axe", ancestors of Persians.
You will find tons of socketed examples dating to BCE

Ariel, Blacksmith mentioned that these types were made for the Paris World Expo 1900, I mentioned reading that they were made in Europe, who knows if either of these statements is correct but this is not an unheard of situation, one example is the Khedive of Egypts armor (helmets, hauberks, cuirass) which he had made in Europe and this was during the 1800s.

I have never seen any proof that these axe were made outside of India / Persia, but they are not constructed in the manner that axe from these regions were usually constructed. One thing is the huge size and weight, I have compared some traditionally made axe to the one of this type that I own, you can clearly see that while it resembles some Indo-Persian axe heads it is of a completely different type. If made in Indian / Persia why suddenly start using a completely different construction method? Yes there are a few socketed weapons examples but duting the time period we are discussing this is not the normal method of construction, Early Ottoman maces used a socketed construction but the was in the 16th - 17th century and I can not remember seeing any Indo-Persian axe made this way except these very recognizable examples.

Originally Posted by Blacksmith

Hello, I have seen these kind of axes with different kind of blade styles and with same haft style and they werw all mentioned to be made for the Paris World Exhibition in the beginning of the 1900. So not made for the actuall use.

[Jim McDougall]

Outstanding discussion here!!
Estcrh and Ibrahiim, thank you for the great images and references. These really help in following the talking points here.
I had not thought of these 'Oriental' (collective term used in earlier times to include India, Arabia etc) weapons being produced in Europe, but as has been noted, they certainly were in many cases.
As also mentioned, mail armor, helmets etc were made in England for the Khedive of Egypt's forces.
There was a great demand for 'exotic ' arms and items in Europe, so it does not seem unreasonable that commercial sources would not respond.
In the Sudan, many of the 'souvenier' items including spear heads etc. were produced in Birmingham to supply the souks .

It seems that the tabar was not typically a preference as a weapon, but more often served in parade and ceremonial or court situations.

[estcrh]

Interesting!!!

You are bidding on a antique 19th century decorative or processional axe. Very well made and quite large. The blade is fashioned in Indo Persian Tabarzin style, it is large 7.5 inches long with a 5 inches wide blade probably made from bronze or copper showing patina. Typical engraved or chiseled decoration on Persian style. The shaft is made from wood and has a carved section for grip also a steel collar on the top section keeping the blade in place. The axe is 38 inches long. Very impressive piece. Probably French manufacture.

[Drabant1701]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Interesting!!!

Indeed interesting find. The shaft on this one is also very similar to other types of axes in this thread. French manufacture could support the World Fair theory.

Another possibility is that the axe heads where made in India exported to europe to be assembled with shafts there.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It seems that the tabar was not typically a preference as a weapon, but more often served in parade and ceremonial or court situations.

Jim, I think that the actual use of axe, mace and war hammer in the Ottoman empire, Indian and Persia is neither well understood or well documented. I think that these types of weapons had their place along with other weapons available to warriors and that they were used when the situation call for it.


Persian Archery and Swordsmanship: Historical Martial Arts of Iran
Author: Dr. Manouchehr Moshtagh Khorasani

Mace fighting (gorzzani) and Axe fighting (tabarzani).

Different types of maces and axes were used by Persian warriors during combat. Both maces as well as axes were powerful bludgeoning weapons that could easily break the enemy`s armor. This means that both types of weapons were used when the enemy wore a heavy armor that could not be penetrated by swords. Persian treatises, epics, poems and historical manuscripts report that Persian warriors were able to crush the helmets and armor of their opponents using these weapons during combat. Certain expressions describing the function of these weapons exist in the Persian language, such as gorz-e meqfarkub (a helmet-pounding mace) and amud-e maqzšekāf (brain-splitting mace). The mace did not only serve as an efficient weapon, but it also served as a symbol of power. Similarly, Persian manuscripts talk about the efficiency of the axe as a weapon with the use of terms such as tabarzin-e ostexānšekan (a bone-breaking saddle axe) in the manuscript Tārix-e Ahmad Šāhi from the 18th century and tabar-e maqzšekāfande(brain-splitting axe) in the manuscript Abu Moslemnāme from the 10th century. The hero Abu Moslem, as reported in the treatise Abu Moslemnāme, fought only with an axe.

There are four different terms in Persian to refer to the mace: a) amud, b) gorz, c) gorze, and d) čomāq. Nowadays one uses the term čomāq to refer to a stick. In Iran, the use of the mace as a weapon of war had a long tradition going back to ancient Iran. Maces were not only used for warfare but they were also used to hunt down animals. Maces began to be used from the beginning of the Bronze Age (3000–1200 C.E.) and also during the later periods including the Islamic period of Iran (651 C.E. until the end of the Qājār period [1925 C.E.]). The mace was a simple weapon but very efficient, and there were many different types of maces. There are also examples with a head made of stone, bronze iron or steel. Additionally, with the passage of time, the mace transformed into a symbol of power and a form of insignia used in ceremonies.

There are two different words used to refer to the axe in Persian: a) tabar and b) tabarzin. The term tabar (axe) could be found in numerous manuscripts from the 10th century but tabar also refers to a variation of an axe meant for the combat tabar-e jangi (war axe). There was also a variation of the term tabar that was used by dervishes and at the same time it was used in the ceremonies such as tabar-e zarrin (a golden axe; a gold-inlaid, gold-overlaid axe) in the 14th-century manuscript Tārix-e Firuzšāhi. On the other hand, the term tabarzin significa “saddle axe” and can be found in numerous manuscripts. The 19th century manuscript Rostam al-Tavārix reports about prison guards (nasgči) who were armed with axes.

The system of Razmafzar also teaches the techniques of maces and axes in Iranian martial tradition. Similar to swords, the techniques of using axes and maces are analyzed and presented starting from epics stories from the tenth century C.E. until the end of the Qājār period. These techniques include carrying the mace, techniques of mace attacks, defense techniques with a mace, combinations of fighting with the mace, general aspects about the axe, techniques of attack with an axe and combinations with an axe.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The flexibility demonstrated with the axe is surprising and it could be used in the thrust especially if it had a spike extending beyond the axe head...and some had the addition of a concealed long spike in the haft. Using the left arm with shield to parry often enabled a decisive strike to the head or neck targets with the saddle axe in the right hand causing severe dental treatment for the opponent and worse...
I suspect that the Qajari period was responsible for the parade axe syndrome but that the axe proper ...as a battle axe and probably using very similar techniques as for the mace... was an ideal solution to heavily armoured cavalry impervious to sword and other bladed weapons but which the saddle axe was well capable. I get a headache thinking about that !

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Drabant1701

Indeed interesting find. The shaft on this one is also very similar to other types of axes in this thread. French manufacture could support the World Fair theory.

Another possibility is that the axe heads where made in India exported to europe to be assembled with shafts there.

I agree that these could have been specifically made for an expo etc and imported. These axe heads are still being made in India. My specific question is the type you posted and the one I own and the one from armsandantiques, they are radically different in their construction, first there is no terminal head, the axe is solid and flat at the top, second there is no counter balance / hammer at the opposite end of the blade, in fact there is no overhang at all compared to other types.

This type is completely different that any Indian or Persian axe / tabar that I know of with this head type, all others as far as I know have a hole that goes all the way through the head, they also have a counter balance / hammer with a V shaped groove cut into the counter balance / hammer.

I have posted an image with red arrows showing the areas that suggest that this type in particular are a completely different type and only appear to be Indo-Persian. Below are two Indian axe, the red arrows show the typical terminal head at the top and the counter balance / hammer with the V groove cut out.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

On the question as to if they were battle or parade items ...I think over time they were both but looking at the David Collection at https://www.davidmus.dk/en/collectio...ar/art/12-1979 and I note;

Quote“Blows were dealt with battle-axes tabar-i-zin, clubs, and swords. A red mist rose from the river.”
(Firdawsi, Shahnama, 10th century)" Unquote.

Certainly the Qajar Dynasty which only ended in about 1923 adds to the concept that axes were for parade work...Earlier, however, (though I still search for more facts ) it appears that Saddle Axes were meant as the antidote to Cavalry in heavy armour which were effective against swords were susceptible to a blow from a Saddle Axe...

What is interesting is what appears to be an early form of battle axe called a Parashu...which I will place in a fresh post.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parashu

Quote"Construction;
The Parashu could be double edged or bladed or single-bladed with a spike on the non cutting edge. It usually measures between 3 – 5 feet though some are as long as 7 feet. The parashu is usually made of iron or wootz steel. The cutting edge is broader than the edge which is attached to the haft. The haft is often tied with a leather sheet to provide a good grip.

In Hinduism;
The parashu is the weapon of the god Shiva who gave it to Parashurama (see artwork below), sixth avatar of Vishnu, whose name means "Rama with the axe" and also taught him its mastery. He is regarded as the founder of the northern style of kalaripayat. Parashurama was the guru of Dronacharya, the guru who instructed the Pandavas in the epic of the Mahabharata. Bhishma and Karna, half brother of Pandava also took instruction in weaponry from Parashurama, a disciple of lord Shiva, and was known to have terrible temper having lost his father to the evil asura. In his anger, Parashurama used the parashu to get rid of the all the Earth's tyrannical kshatriya caste twenty-one times over. Parashurama's weapon had supernatural powers. It had four cutting edges, one on each end of the blade head and one on each end of the shaft.

The Parashu was known as the most lethal close combat weapons of the epics. It is also one of the weapons of Lord Shiva and Goddess Durga and is still depicted on their idols throughout India." Unquote.

It occurred to me that where weapons were so engraved on the psyche through their belief system that those famous ancient seemingly mythical items would find an important place in the actual battle field systems down the ages..

Martial Arts;
I found it interesting that the Agni Purana Martial Style between the 8th and 11th Century AD mentions in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_martial_arts~
Quote" The section concludes with listing the names of actions or "deeds" possible with a number of weapons, including 32 positions to be taken with sword and shield (khaḍgacarmavidhau), 11 names of techniques of using a rope in fighting, along with 5 names of "acts in the rope operation" along with lists of "deeds" pertaining to the chakram (war-quoit), the spear, the tomara (iron club), the gada (mace), the axe, the hammer, the bhindipāla or laguda, the vajra, the dagger, the slingshot, and finally deeds with a bludgeon or cudgel. A short passage near the end of the text returns to the larger concerns of warfare and explains the various uses of war elephants and men. The text concludes with a description of how to appropriately send the well-trained fighter off to war.''Unquote.

Conclusion;
The point is that most of the weapons used in battle by mounted and dismounted Indian warriors are contained in these martial arts which became standard practice throughout the story of India down the ages. It seems apparent that these weapon skills were taught for close combat action and the Mace and Axe would therefor have been used where required....Systems changed and armies developed and dropped certain techniques though retained the weapons for traditions and parade purposes and particularly in the time of the late Persian Qajar period; axes became part of the scene at Military pageants etc. I assume the same thing happened in India...Modern armies still retain such historically honoured weapons such as swords and remnants of body armour, lances, and spears often adorned with regimental colours.

Note; See also https://books.google.com.om/books?id...ghting&f=false page 69 where it is noted that the Sumerians discovered that making the axe head heavier and sharper pushed the foot pound impact up to 77.5 when the critical power needed to crunch through body armour was only 66 foot pounds... thus they had a winner in hand.... which would be a dominant factor for warfare for the next 2000 years.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

From [url]
Note; See also https://books.google.com.om/books?id...ghting&f=false page 69 where it is noted that the Sumerians discovered that making the axe head heavier and sharper pushed the foot pound impact up to 77.5 when the critical power needed to crunch through body armour was only 66 foot pounds... thus they had a winner in hand.... which would be a dominant factor for warfare for the next 2000 years.

A good reference.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

On the question as to if they were battle or parade items ...I think over time they were both but looking at the David Collection at https://www.davidmus.dk/en/collectio...ar/art/12-1979 and I note;

Quote“Blows were dealt with battle-axes tabar-i-zin, clubs, and swords. A red mist rose from the river.”
(Firdawsi, Shahnama, 10th century)" Unquote.

Certainly the Qajar Dynasty which only ended in about 1923 adds to the concept that axes were for parade work...Earlier, however, (though I still search for more facts ) it appears that Saddle Axes were meant as the antidote to Cavalry in heavy armour which were effective against swords were susceptible to a blow from a Saddle Axe...

What is interesting is what appears to be an early form of battle axe called a Parashu...which I will place in a fresh post.

Here is an axe from the David collection, they label this axe as a "parade weapon", this is a common mistake, there is absolutely no reason to assume that this axe is anything other than a weapon, just because it is decorated and has velvet on the haft does not take away from its ability as a weapon. Wealthy warriors / potentates of every culture owned and used these highly decorated weapons, it was expected of them.

Battle-axe, iron and gold damascening
India; c. 1800
H: 55; L: 13.1 cm
The short, elegant battle-axe (tabar-i-zin) comes from the Persian region, where it was already part of a horseman’s equipment in the early Islamic period. Not all battle-axes were velvet-clad parade weapons like this one, however.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Here is an axe from the David collection, they label this axe as a "parade weapon", this is a common mistake, there is absolutely no reason to assume that this axe is anything other than a weapon, just because it is decorated and has velvet on the haft does not take away from its ability as a weapon. Wealthy warriors / potentates of every culture owned and used these highly decorated weapons, it was expected of them.

Battle-axe, iron and gold damascening
India; c. 1800
H: 55; L: 13.1 cm
The short, elegant battle-axe (tabar-i-zin) comes from the Persian region, where it was already part of a horseman’s equipment in the early Islamic period. Not all battle-axes were velvet-clad parade weapons like this one, however.

Yes you are correct ... That is the weapon I was referencing in my last post but the perception is in the eyes of the reader where it is easy to be misled since it suggests it is only for Parade whilst of course it is also a weapon. The problem developed as heavy cavalry clad in masses of armour declined coinciding in the late Qajar period and the parade nature of these great armies..

In respect of Post 20 and 24. and the Project axe at #1

In the late 19th and early 20th C a lot of copies were made in European centres where French must be the obvious suggested manufacturing point...bearing in mind the expo nature of French industry at the time. I feel the item looks "new" whilst chipped on one corner no other ageing is present in my view. Therefor I suggest the replica nature of this blade, although, it is a reasonable styling of Indo/ Persian form my feeling is it is a reproduction for one of the French exhibitions.