Awesome Hanger Sword for ID and Comments

Antique Arsenal · 27th September 2013, 02:28 AM

Recently I have purchased a beautiful hanger sword. The seller stated that it is “18th C. French or Hungarian Hanger Sword Possibly Naval Cutlass”. However, he was not definite of this statement.

I have done research on my own but I was not able to determine some key elements. In one of my catalogues I was able to find a marking of a half moon similar, but not identical to the one on the sword. It did say that this type of marking originated from unknown sword smith in Germany XVII-XVIII century. Also, judging by the condition of the blade itself I thought that this statement might be correct.

The guard and the grip of the sword are of truly beautiful work and they might be from a later period. What I am wondering about is the shape of the guard which I think is a monogram. Possibly royal.

I would like to call to your expertise to find out who's monogram is it and in which county this sword might have been used. Originally I thought that this sword was made for use in Hungry or Poland, but I was never certain. Could you help me with answering these questions? I would appreciate any input you cold provide to me.

I look forward to your reply.

Thanks,

Aleks

M ELEY · 27th September 2013, 09:47 AM

Not at home with my books, but I believe the seller was right on with his synopsis. It's an 18th c. hanger, with French and/or Eastern European (Hungarian a good possibility) style. Hangers such as this were used in hunting, as well as for sidearms for infantry/army/naval officers. The ironwork design is spectacular and one I've never seen before. I think it is contemporary wit the blade. The hilt very similar to falchions and cuttoes of the period. The markings on the sword are all very typical of 17th/18th c. markings, moons, stars, cabalistic markings, foliage, etc. The raised pommel bolt/tang and shape of hilt leads me to believe first quarter 18th century. The open-work guard/knuckle bow is very interesting/unique, but I don't think the design is a monogram? I could be wrong. The open style with missing chain could indicate more of a hunting use as far as the guard and shorter length blade goes. A very beautiful and well-designed piece!

Jim McDougall · 27th September 2013, 10:08 PM

This does appear to be a hanger somewhat of the 'cuttoe' type of 18th century, and the East European assessment seems quite plausible. Interesting use of the dramatic red backdrop in the images which reminds me of certain style used by several dealers and truly enhances the metalwork.
In the 18th century the gentry and courts greatly favored social groups focused on hunting and related activities in which fashion and status oriented arms were de rigeur. Actually many of the swords worn in court settings were those known collectively as 'hunting swords', used from the previous century and onward as 'riding' or travel swords.

This appears one of this type, and as Mark has well noted, the openwork on the guard is not likely to be a monogram, though it certainly appears to be the letter 'A'. The metalwork is outstanding but the grip is a cast iron form of crosshatch form seen occasionally on certain Islamic style arms but not until latter in 18th or into 19th. The profile of the hilt resembles certain Islamic, particularly Ottoman, forms.

The blade does appear to be German as noted, and of about mid 18th type or perhaps slightly earlier. These cabalistic motifs with cosmological elements, in particular the faced crescent moon, were actually widely used on blades in these times not only in Germany but other East European centers and France. They were not associated with any particular maker nor region but typically applied by artisans working with blade producers as they were prepared for various markets and clientele. The groupings evolved from the calendar and good fortune style motif often used on hunting and court weapons which led to talismanic associations later in wider scope.

The eyelet and apertures on the guard suggest three chains may have been used on the knuckleguard, further emphasizing its non combat usage.

Antique Arsenal · 28th September 2013, 12:29 AM

Thank you both for your opinions. You input is greatly appreciated. I was hoping that the shape of the guard is a monogram and I will be able to track it down. In any case I really love this sword and will certainly enjoy it.
If any anyone would have anything more to add, I will be grateful.

Thanks,
Aleks

Antique Arsenal · 28th September 2013, 03:42 AM

I have one more thing to add.
I just found out that the grip is connected to the blade with a nut through top of the pommel. This nut could be easily removed, without damaging the sword, with help of some gun oil. Could it be a possible indication that the guard with the grip was a later addition (possible 19th century) to 18th century sword?

Thanks,
Aleks

fernando · 28th September 2013, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antique Arsenal

... Could it be a possible indication that the guard with the grip was a later addition (possible 19th century) to 18th century sword? ...

... Maybe not necessarily so but, the missing chain ... or the chain missing, might be a sign that the grip was not a match with the guard, as there seems not to be space enough between both to make it coherent ... not the holes in the guard seem to be the right coupling for the chain.
Is it some lettering on the blade ? Can you check it?

.

fernando · 28th September 2013, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... The metalwork is outstanding but the grip is a cast iron form of crosshatch form seen occasionally on certain Islamic style arms but not until latter in 18th or into 19th...

Uncle Jim's wisdom working

Antique Arsenal · 28th September 2013, 04:54 PM

Hi Fernando,
Thank you for your input. I do not think that that is lettering but I might be wrong. The other side of the blade has identical decoration. Please see the photo below for a better image of that decoration/lettering.

Thanks,
Aleks

fernando · 28th September 2013, 05:37 PM

With this new picture, it's decoration for sure.

Multumesc · 29th September 2013, 11:45 AM

It seems like it would be a hunting sword 18th century Polish.It is a rare and beautiful sword.

Antique Arsenal · 29th September 2013, 11:07 PM

Hi,
I was able to safely remove the dandle off the blade. Under it I have revealed two markings. Unfortunately, they surface was heavily corroded. I have cleaned it to my best ability. I hope that these markings would shed some more light on the history of this sword.

The first marking is a distinctive lettering. I think that it is some kind of abbreviation “PK”. You can see the photo of that marking on a first picture below.

The second making was extensively damaged by the rust, but after cleaning it up and observing it under different angles I think that it is an image of three skied crown with “DD” letters below it. Off course, I could be wrong since the image is some what unclear. Please find below the two photos of that mark (2nd and 3rd image below). The last image is scanned drawing of what I think this mark represented.

Please, let me know if these marks look familiar to any of you.

Thanks,
Aleks

Antique Arsenal · 1st October 2013, 02:34 AM

Sorry for the messed up spelling. I meant “I was able to safely remove the handle off the blade” NOT “dangle”.

27th September 2013, 02:28 AM	#1
Antique Arsenal Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 35	Awesome Hanger Sword for ID and Comments Recently I have purchased a beautiful hanger sword. The seller stated that it is “18th C. French or Hungarian Hanger Sword Possibly Naval Cutlass”. However, he was not definite of this statement. I have done research on my own but I was not able to determine some key elements. In one of my catalogues I was able to find a marking of a half moon similar, but not identical to the one on the sword. It did say that this type of marking originated from unknown sword smith in Germany XVII-XVIII century. Also, judging by the condition of the blade itself I thought that this statement might be correct. The guard and the grip of the sword are of truly beautiful work and they might be from a later period. What I am wondering about is the shape of the guard which I think is a monogram. Possibly royal. I would like to call to your expertise to find out who's monogram is it and in which county this sword might have been used. Originally I thought that this sword was made for use in Hungry or Poland, but I was never certain. Could you help me with answering these questions? I would appreciate any input you cold provide to me. I look forward to your reply. Thanks, Aleks Attached Images

28th September 2013, 04:54 PM	#8
Antique Arsenal Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 35	Hi Fernando, Thank you for your input. I do not think that that is lettering but I might be wrong. The other side of the blade has identical decoration. Please see the photo below for a better image of that decoration/lettering. Thanks, Aleks Attached Images

29th September 2013, 11:45 AM	#10
Multumesc Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Romania Posts: 203	Awesome Hanger Sword for ID and Comments It seems like it would be a hunting sword 18th century Polish.It is a rare and beautiful sword.

29th September 2013, 11:07 PM	#11
Antique Arsenal Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 35	Hi, I was able to safely remove the dandle off the blade. Under it I have revealed two markings. Unfortunately, they surface was heavily corroded. I have cleaned it to my best ability. I hope that these markings would shed some more light on the history of this sword. The first marking is a distinctive lettering. I think that it is some kind of abbreviation “PK”. You can see the photo of that marking on a first picture below. The second making was extensively damaged by the rust, but after cleaning it up and observing it under different angles I think that it is an image of three skied crown with “DD” letters below it. Off course, I could be wrong since the image is some what unclear. Please find below the two photos of that mark (2nd and 3rd image below). The last image is scanned drawing of what I think this mark represented. Please, let me know if these marks look familiar to any of you. Thanks, Aleks Attached Images

27th September 2013, 09:47 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Not at home with my books, but I believe the seller was right on with his synopsis. It's an 18th c. hanger, with French and/or Eastern European (Hungarian a good possibility) style. Hangers such as this were used in hunting, as well as for sidearms for infantry/army/naval officers. The ironwork design is spectacular and one I've never seen before. I think it is contemporary wit the blade. The hilt very similar to falchions and cuttoes of the period. The markings on the sword are all very typical of 17th/18th c. markings, moons, stars, cabalistic markings, foliage, etc. The raised pommel bolt/tang and shape of hilt leads me to believe first quarter 18th century. The open-work guard/knuckle bow is very interesting/unique, but I don't think the design is a monogram? I could be wrong. The open style with missing chain could indicate more of a hunting use as far as the guard and shorter length blade goes. A very beautiful and well-designed piece!

27th September 2013, 10:08 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	This does appear to be a hanger somewhat of the 'cuttoe' type of 18th century, and the East European assessment seems quite plausible. Interesting use of the dramatic red backdrop in the images which reminds me of certain style used by several dealers and truly enhances the metalwork. In the 18th century the gentry and courts greatly favored social groups focused on hunting and related activities in which fashion and status oriented arms were de rigeur. Actually many of the swords worn in court settings were those known collectively as 'hunting swords', used from the previous century and onward as 'riding' or travel swords. This appears one of this type, and as Mark has well noted, the openwork on the guard is not likely to be a monogram, though it certainly appears to be the letter 'A'. The metalwork is outstanding but the grip is a cast iron form of crosshatch form seen occasionally on certain Islamic style arms but not until latter in 18th or into 19th. The profile of the hilt resembles certain Islamic, particularly Ottoman, forms. The blade does appear to be German as noted, and of about mid 18th type or perhaps slightly earlier. These cabalistic motifs with cosmological elements, in particular the faced crescent moon, were actually widely used on blades in these times not only in Germany but other East European centers and France. They were not associated with any particular maker nor region but typically applied by artisans working with blade producers as they were prepared for various markets and clientele. The groupings evolved from the calendar and good fortune style motif often used on hunting and court weapons which led to talismanic associations later in wider scope. The eyelet and apertures on the guard suggest three chains may have been used on the knuckleguard, further emphasizing its non combat usage.

28th September 2013, 12:29 AM	#4
Antique Arsenal Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 35	Thank you both for your opinions. You input is greatly appreciated. I was hoping that the shape of the guard is a monogram and I will be able to track it down. In any case I really love this sword and will certainly enjoy it. If any anyone would have anything more to add, I will be grateful. Thanks, Aleks

28th September 2013, 03:42 AM	#5
Antique Arsenal Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 35	I have one more thing to add. I just found out that the grip is connected to the blade with a nut through top of the pommel. This nut could be easily removed, without damaging the sword, with help of some gun oil. Could it be a possible indication that the guard with the grip was a later addition (possible 19th century) to 18th century sword? Thanks, Aleks

28th September 2013, 05:37 PM	#9
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	With this new picture, it's decoration for sure.

1st October 2013, 02:34 AM	#12
Antique Arsenal Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 35	Sorry for the messed up spelling. I meant “I was able to safely remove the handle off the blade” NOT “dangle”.