Has anyone heard of the term "Island Swords" ?

katana · 21st July 2011, 07:21 PM

In trying to research the possible origins of the blade in Gunto mounts

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13836

I read that native blade smiths in Japanese Occupied regions were forced to produce blades for WW2 era Japanese swords. I came across the term 'Island swords' to descibe them ....but have been unable to find out whether this is a proper classification .

Has anyone more info please ?

Thank you
David

VANDOO · 21st July 2011, 11:51 PM

I DOUBT THE JAPANESE WOULD REQUIRE OR TRUST A NON JAPANESE LOCAL TO ATTEMPT TO MAKE A JAPANESE KATANA OR OTHER BLADE. AFTER ALL THEY CONSIDERED ALL OTHER BLADES INFERIOR. AND LIKELY THE SKILL WAS NOT THERE.

THEY MAY HAVE HAD LOCAL REPAIRS MADE TO SWORDS THAT WERE DAMAGED I HAVE SEEN QUITE A FEW NATIVE MODIFIED JAPANESE SWORDS OVER THE YEARS. SOME MADE OUT OF BROKEN BLADES AS WELL AS SOME REMOUNTED IN NON JAPANESE FASHON. PERHAPS THESE WOULD FIT AS A ISLAND SWORD.

IF REPAIRS OR REFITTING WAS REQUESTED BY JAPANESE OR THEY WERE PICKED UP BY LOCALS FOR THEIR OWN USE IS UNKNOWN.

LOCAL SMITHS DID MAKE PARANGS, BOLOS ,ECT THAT FOUND THEIR WAY INTO JAPANESE AS WELL AS AMERICAN HANDS. I HAVE SEEN A FEW BUTTERFLY KNIVES WITH THE RED MEATBALL DESIGN IN THE HANDLE AND ASSUME THEY WERE PRODUCED TO SELL TO THE JAPANESE. JAPANESE WRITING IS FOUND ON SOME PHILIPPINE KNIVES AND SWORDS AS WELL (ANOTHER TYPE OF POSSIBLE ISLAND SWORD).

I DON'T REMEMBER ANYTHING SPECIFICALLY BEING REFERRED TO AS A ISLAND SWORD EXCEPT PERHAPS BY SOMEONE WHO DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE ITEM EXCEPT THAT HE HAD BEEN TOLD IT WAS BROUGHT BACK FROM SOME ISLANDS DURING WW2.
GOOD LUCK ON YOUR QUEST I AM SURE THE SWORD IN QUESTION COULD TELL AN INTERESTING TALE IF IT COULD SPEAK.

katana · 22nd July 2011, 01:34 PM

Thanks Barry,
I was uncertain about the 'stories' of native manufacture .... the Japanese had limited supplies of 'raw' materials during the later stages of the war ....which may or may not have caused situations whereby blades were produced by 'local' techniques/materials. Many of the regions that produced Dha/Darb were occupied by the Japanese, and a lot of these blades were of very good quality.
Many of the later produced Japanese swords were of poor quality and not traditionally made....mono steel, oil quenched, machine made etc. So perhaps there may have been a few isolated cases of 'native produced' katana blades

As to 'Island swords' ....I only found one reference in a forum .....but no where else....so perhaps a Chinese fakers sales term to help sell their wares

All the best

David

Amuk Murugul · 22nd July 2011, 10:45 PM

Hullo everybody!

During the Japanese occupation, many swords were made in the Japanese style, mainly for local militias. Quality varied, depending on maker.
Here's a link to a previous thread which may help:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10183

Best,

katana · 22nd July 2011, 11:05 PM

Hi Amuk

,
thanks for the link. In that thread you show 3 swords....the middle one has a similar laced leather cover to the one on mine. Are the blades pegged (mekugi) to hold them to the handle ?

Kind Regards David

sadakichi · 23rd July 2011, 09:40 PM

Hello all -

When I became interested in "edged weapons" fifty-odd years ago, the name "island knives" (or swords) was simply a generic name for the many different blades that came from the Philipines and other "island" nations in the pacific area. Early-on, I became interested in Japanese swords and that has been my primary study for most of my life. To my knowledge, the Japanese never did use native craftsmen to make or repair their swords. Instead, they had (when possible) craftsmen skilled in making and repairing swords brought into the field to make such repairs.

What you will find are Japanese swords that have been "lost" in the field or taken from bodies or prisoners, and "redressed" by the new (native) owners. Several of the swords pictured earlier would fit this description, although possibly done post-war for resale to GIs. A good example (unfortunately, an example not kept by me) was an "island sword" found by me ~ 40 years ago. It was mounted in typical islander fashion with wooden handle and scabbard decorated with mother-of-pearl and shell inlay, etc. The blade was totally rusted. A friend recognized that the "blade" was a Japanese sword, so we broke apart the handle (which was glued on) to reveal the nakago (tang) of a 17th century wakizashi (short sword). The sword was eventually polished by Mr. Nakajima, polisher for the Japanese Sword Society/US in the 70s, but revealed a fatal crack in the blade. However, the sword, made by two early 1600 swordsmiths -- Echizen Masanori and Masakatsu -- was discovered illustrated in the list of shin-to swordsmiths by Fujishiro (p.309).

What this meant was that in prewar years, this sword passed through the hands of Mr. Fujishiro and was selected for his books on ko-to and shin-to swords. Apparently the officer who carried this sword into was was (most likely) killed and his sword found by some islander who in turn remouted it to his taste. I've always found this story fascinating that this "island sword" started its life in early Edo days of old Japan! (Hope this was not too long-winded. Apologies, if so.)

Ron

KuKulzA28 · 23rd July 2011, 10:42 PM

That is a fascinating story! Thanks for sharing your knowledge....

I am not overly familiar with Japanese swords in SE Asia, but I do know that there are many Chinese, Filipino, and Indonesian smiths that make Japanese style blades today because katana have left their mark on both SE Asia and the rest of the world... people are fascinated by nihonto.

And according to Donn F. Draeger, the Silat style Tapak Sutji uses the katana (though not in the "original" way as practiced in Japanese arts)

Battara · 24th July 2011, 02:05 AM

Japanese style swords were made toward the end of WWII in Indonesia and the Philippines. These were for Japanese soldiers who were stationed in these places and wanted one but could not afford one made from Japan.

Theses are not to be confused with fakes made today.

21st July 2011, 07:21 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Has anyone heard of the term "Island Swords" ? In trying to research the possible origins of the blade in Gunto mounts http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13836 I read that native blade smiths in Japanese Occupied regions were forced to produce blades for WW2 era Japanese swords. I came across the term 'Island swords' to descibe them ....but have been unable to find out whether this is a proper classification . Has anyone more info please ? Thank you David Last edited by katana; 21st July 2011 at 09:36 PM.

22nd July 2011, 10:45 PM	#4
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 460	"Island Sword" - What's in a name? Hullo everybody! During the Japanese occupation, many swords were made in the Japanese style, mainly for local militias. Quality varied, depending on maker. Here's a link to a previous thread which may help: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10183 Best,

22nd July 2011, 11:05 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Amuk , thanks for the link. In that thread you show 3 swords....the middle one has a similar laced leather cover to the one on mine. Are the blades pegged (mekugi) to hold them to the handle ? Kind Regards David Attached Images

21st July 2011, 11:51 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I DOUBT THE JAPANESE WOULD REQUIRE OR TRUST A NON JAPANESE LOCAL TO ATTEMPT TO MAKE A JAPANESE KATANA OR OTHER BLADE. AFTER ALL THEY CONSIDERED ALL OTHER BLADES INFERIOR. AND LIKELY THE SKILL WAS NOT THERE. THEY MAY HAVE HAD LOCAL REPAIRS MADE TO SWORDS THAT WERE DAMAGED I HAVE SEEN QUITE A FEW NATIVE MODIFIED JAPANESE SWORDS OVER THE YEARS. SOME MADE OUT OF BROKEN BLADES AS WELL AS SOME REMOUNTED IN NON JAPANESE FASHON. PERHAPS THESE WOULD FIT AS A ISLAND SWORD. IF REPAIRS OR REFITTING WAS REQUESTED BY JAPANESE OR THEY WERE PICKED UP BY LOCALS FOR THEIR OWN USE IS UNKNOWN. LOCAL SMITHS DID MAKE PARANGS, BOLOS ,ECT THAT FOUND THEIR WAY INTO JAPANESE AS WELL AS AMERICAN HANDS. I HAVE SEEN A FEW BUTTERFLY KNIVES WITH THE RED MEATBALL DESIGN IN THE HANDLE AND ASSUME THEY WERE PRODUCED TO SELL TO THE JAPANESE. JAPANESE WRITING IS FOUND ON SOME PHILIPPINE KNIVES AND SWORDS AS WELL (ANOTHER TYPE OF POSSIBLE ISLAND SWORD). I DON'T REMEMBER ANYTHING SPECIFICALLY BEING REFERRED TO AS A ISLAND SWORD EXCEPT PERHAPS BY SOMEONE WHO DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE ITEM EXCEPT THAT HE HAD BEEN TOLD IT WAS BROUGHT BACK FROM SOME ISLANDS DURING WW2. GOOD LUCK ON YOUR QUEST I AM SURE THE SWORD IN QUESTION COULD TELL AN INTERESTING TALE IF IT COULD SPEAK.

22nd July 2011, 01:34 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thanks Barry, I was uncertain about the 'stories' of native manufacture .... the Japanese had limited supplies of 'raw' materials during the later stages of the war ....which may or may not have caused situations whereby blades were produced by 'local' techniques/materials. Many of the regions that produced Dha/Darb were occupied by the Japanese, and a lot of these blades were of very good quality. Many of the later produced Japanese swords were of poor quality and not traditionally made....mono steel, oil quenched, machine made etc. So perhaps there may have been a few isolated cases of 'native produced' katana blades As to 'Island swords' ....I only found one reference in a forum .....but no where else....so perhaps a Chinese fakers sales term to help sell their wares All the best David

23rd July 2011, 09:40 PM	#6
sadakichi Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: St. Louis, Missouri USA Posts: 5	Hello all - When I became interested in "edged weapons" fifty-odd years ago, the name "island knives" (or swords) was simply a generic name for the many different blades that came from the Philipines and other "island" nations in the pacific area. Early-on, I became interested in Japanese swords and that has been my primary study for most of my life. To my knowledge, the Japanese never did use native craftsmen to make or repair their swords. Instead, they had (when possible) craftsmen skilled in making and repairing swords brought into the field to make such repairs. What you will find are Japanese swords that have been "lost" in the field or taken from bodies or prisoners, and "redressed" by the new (native) owners. Several of the swords pictured earlier would fit this description, although possibly done post-war for resale to GIs. A good example (unfortunately, an example not kept by me) was an "island sword" found by me ~ 40 years ago. It was mounted in typical islander fashion with wooden handle and scabbard decorated with mother-of-pearl and shell inlay, etc. The blade was totally rusted. A friend recognized that the "blade" was a Japanese sword, so we broke apart the handle (which was glued on) to reveal the nakago (tang) of a 17th century wakizashi (short sword). The sword was eventually polished by Mr. Nakajima, polisher for the Japanese Sword Society/US in the 70s, but revealed a fatal crack in the blade. However, the sword, made by two early 1600 swordsmiths -- Echizen Masanori and Masakatsu -- was discovered illustrated in the list of shin-to swordsmiths by Fujishiro (p.309). What this meant was that in prewar years, this sword passed through the hands of Mr. Fujishiro and was selected for his books on ko-to and shin-to swords. Apparently the officer who carried this sword into was was (most likely) killed and his sword found by some islander who in turn remouted it to his taste. I've always found this story fascinating that this "island sword" started its life in early Edo days of old Japan! (Hope this was not too long-winded. Apologies, if so.) Ron

23rd July 2011, 10:42 PM	#7
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	That is a fascinating story! Thanks for sharing your knowledge.... I am not overly familiar with Japanese swords in SE Asia, but I do know that there are many Chinese, Filipino, and Indonesian smiths that make Japanese style blades today because katana have left their mark on both SE Asia and the rest of the world... people are fascinated by nihonto. And according to Donn F. Draeger, the Silat style Tapak Sutji uses the katana (though not in the "original" way as practiced in Japanese arts)

24th July 2011, 02:05 AM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Japanese style swords were made toward the end of WWII in Indonesia and the Philippines. These were for Japanese soldiers who were stationed in these places and wanted one but could not afford one made from Japan. Theses are not to be confused with fakes made today.