A FRENCH falx-like object?

Emanuel · 17th March 2007, 04:15 PM

Hello,

I ran accross some pictures from a 13th century French manuscript, "Les Coutumes de Toulouse" and I found something that shattered some of my ideas about the falx weapon. In several scenes it portrays people carrying what is essentially a falx in a ceremonial context.
I wouldn't call it a rhomphaia, since the hooked tip is very distinct and has a very acute angle. The excavated examples of rhomphaia have much smaller curvature.

The illustrations would suggest either that such things were common in 13th century France, that a weapon from the Vlach or Bulgarian states made its way to France, or that this is simply some form of pole-arm - a cutdown variant of a guisarme perhaps.

I am just starting to research this document, but does anyone have any comments to make about it?

Regards,
Emanuel

ariel · 17th March 2007, 08:59 PM

I have a similar one, from Brittany , 18th century. It is a Chouan halberd(Chouans were the royalist guerillas, fighting the French Revolutionary dictatorship). BTW, anybody wants it?

FenrisWolf · 18th March 2007, 12:02 AM

There was a discussion a while ago where the hand-gisarm (a gisarm blade on a three foot haft) was brought forward, similar to this weapon but without the hook at the end. According to the one literary reference I know, "Men Of Iron" by Howard Pyle (who was himself an expert on Medieval European Weaponry among other things) the hand gisarm was popular during the reign of Richard Couer de Lion as a substitute for the lance in the lists, but fell out of favor after a brief time. If it was indeed in vogue for a time, it doesn't surprise me to see other variants of polearms being shortened for one-handed use.

Fenris

BTW, if it's cluttering up your house, I'd be glad to get rid of it for you. Of course you'd have to give it to me for free, and pay for the shipping yourself....

Joe · 18th March 2007, 03:45 AM

Ariel, my first thought was also the Chouan halberd, but that's got the sharp edge on the wrong side, and was introduced some 500 years after the "Les Coutumes de Toulouse" was made.

But I took a look through my pic archives, and I found something similar. Certainly not from the 1200's, but sharing the same form, and showing obvious signs of being rehilted at one point or another.

Emanuel · 18th March 2007, 04:00 AM

It seems this is a "faux de guerre" a war-scythe, popular in France from the 13th -15th century. A footman's arm, it was essentially a conventional scythe converted into a weapon. The problem with this is that the illustrations show something much more "refined" - it doesn't look patched together. Furthermore, it is wielded by men wearing maille, indicating some degree of wealth.
I'm thinking it is just another unconventional medieval weapon that was never standardized in any way. The various choppers in the Maciejowski manuscript come to mind. It's just interesting to see these depicted.

Here's a pic of one I found:

Emanuel · 18th March 2007, 04:13 AM

On the subject of weird medieval weapons, have a look at these...Sort of recalls some klewangs in van Zonneveld...

17th March 2007, 04:15 PM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	A FRENCH falx-like object? Hello, I ran accross some pictures from a 13th century French manuscript, "Les Coutumes de Toulouse" and I found something that shattered some of my ideas about the falx weapon. In several scenes it portrays people carrying what is essentially a falx in a ceremonial context. I wouldn't call it a rhomphaia, since the hooked tip is very distinct and has a very acute angle. The excavated examples of rhomphaia have much smaller curvature. The illustrations would suggest either that such things were common in 13th century France, that a weapon from the Vlach or Bulgarian states made its way to France, or that this is simply some form of pole-arm - a cutdown variant of a guisarme perhaps. I am just starting to research this document, but does anyone have any comments to make about it? Regards, Emanuel Attached Images Last edited by Manolo; 17th March 2007 at 04:26 PM.

17th March 2007, 08:59 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I have a similar one, from Brittany , 18th century. It is a Chouan halberd(Chouans were the royalist guerillas, fighting the French Revolutionary dictatorship). BTW, anybody wants it? Attached Images

18th March 2007, 03:45 AM	#4
Joe Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: McDonough, GA Posts: 48	Ariel, my first thought was also the Chouan halberd, but that's got the sharp edge on the wrong side, and was introduced some 500 years after the "Les Coutumes de Toulouse" was made. But I took a look through my pic archives, and I found something similar. Certainly not from the 1200's, but sharing the same form, and showing obvious signs of being rehilted at one point or another. Attached Images

18th March 2007, 04:00 AM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	It seems this is a "faux de guerre" a war-scythe, popular in France from the 13th -15th century. A footman's arm, it was essentially a conventional scythe converted into a weapon. The problem with this is that the illustrations show something much more "refined" - it doesn't look patched together. Furthermore, it is wielded by men wearing maille, indicating some degree of wealth. I'm thinking it is just another unconventional medieval weapon that was never standardized in any way. The various choppers in the Maciejowski manuscript come to mind. It's just interesting to see these depicted. Here's a pic of one I found: Attached Images Last edited by Manolo; 18th March 2007 at 04:10 AM.

18th March 2007, 04:13 AM	#6
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	On the subject of weird medieval weapons, have a look at these...Sort of recalls some klewangs in van Zonneveld... Attached Images

18th March 2007, 12:02 AM	#3
FenrisWolf Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 181	There was a discussion a while ago where the hand-gisarm (a gisarm blade on a three foot haft) was brought forward, similar to this weapon but without the hook at the end. According to the one literary reference I know, "Men Of Iron" by Howard Pyle (who was himself an expert on Medieval European Weaponry among other things) the hand gisarm was popular during the reign of Richard Couer de Lion as a substitute for the lance in the lists, but fell out of favor after a brief time. If it was indeed in vogue for a time, it doesn't surprise me to see other variants of polearms being shortened for one-handed use. Fenris BTW, if it's cluttering up your house, I'd be glad to get rid of it for you. Of course you'd have to give it to me for free, and pay for the shipping yourself....