Long Pedang from Bali (or Lombok?)

[Athanase]

Here is a pedang that I think Balinese. This is the first time I see one of this type.
Unfortunately there was no sheath.

Compared to the few Balinese pedang lurus I have seen until now, I was surprised by its relatively long length. (blade + hilt : 69cm)

Have you ever seen similar pedang?
What would a sheath look like for this type of blade?

[kai]

Hello Sevérin,

Congrats! I'm sure this blade deserves a polish and carful staining. Length doesn't seem unusual for a full-size example.

I've seen these pedang with fairly utilitarian scabbards. This one probably had a nicer one though...

Regards,
Kai

[Sajen]

Just stumbled about this thread, it seems that I have overlooked it when get posted. Congrats Sevérin, a beautiful blade! I still would call it cundrik!

Regards,
Detlef

[Henk]

It is a balinese wedung. I've seen these before with such a long blade.
This how the scabbard looks like.

[kai]

Hello Henk,

It is a balinese wedung. I've seen these before with such a long blade.
This how the scabbard looks like.

Wedung is a Javanese name.

While the hilt may be related, I also doubt that Sevérin's blade is of primarily ceremonial function...

Could you post one of the long blades with fitting scabbard that you mentioned, please?

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Detlef,

Originally Posted by Sajen

I still would call it cundrik!

Yup, I'm fine with that, too...

Regards,
Kai

[Henk]

Hello Kai,

Here in The Netherlands it is called by the older collectors a wedung from Bali. Although wedung is as you say Javanese balinese wedung is probably a Dutch classification.
Unfortunately I cann't show you such a wedung because these examples are in the collection of some elder Dutch collectors i used to visit years ago with the invitation of a deceased friend of my. In those days making pictures of the collections of these gentlemen was not done. Showing these items to others neither.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Henk

It is a balinese wedung. I've seen these before with such a long blade.
This how the scabbard looks like.

Hello Henk,
Yes, I know the term "Balinese wedung" but we know that this knife is known as tiuk pengentas, please see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=wedung
A tiuk pengentas has always a scabbard like the one you have shown in post #4 and a somewhat belly shaped edge.
The blade in question is from the form clearly a stabbing weapon and for sure not for ceremonial meaning.
So I doubt that this knife has had once a scabbard like a tiuk pengentas simple because it isn't such a knife.
I still think that we can call it cundrik.

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

The word "tiuk" in Balinese means "knife", this object is 65cm. long, a bit too long for a knife.

As far as I am aware, the word "cundrik" does not exist in Balinese, but Lalu Djelengga uses it in his book, so apparently it is a legitimate term in Lombok for a shortish pedang, but the examples Djelengga gives differ substantially from the example we have here.

The word "cuntrik" (pron. chuntri(k) the "k" is a glottal stop) does exist which is clearly a variant spelling, and a picture of a "keris cuntrik" in the Den Pasar Museum is below.

In Balinese the usual word for a sword-like weapon is "peding", the Balinese variant on "pedang".

The word "cundrik" is usually taken as a Javanese word, where it is a generic term for a dagger, and also the name of a keris dhapur.

In any case, whatever we care to call this sword, it is a pretty nice thing.

EDIT

I just remembered this one in the Neka in Ubud.

This is "Ki Pedang Nagaraja". The text about this pedang refers to it as a "keris" with the dhapur pedang. We must remember that the text of "Keris Bali" is written in Bahasa Indonesia by a Javanese gentleman.

[Henk]

Hello Detlef,

Yes, I have seen and handled these tiuk pengentas with the belly shaped edge, also called here balinese wedung. Just as this one with the long blade.
I do remember the piece so well because i was smashed by its appearance.

Can you imagine? The houses of our hosts where complete museums with the most magnificent items and weapons. And as my late friend used to say and i often have to think with a smile to his words: We are in a museum, Henk. But this is better. We are allowed to touch everything. And he smiled.

Our hosts where collectors with their roots in Indonesia. I learned a lot in those days. You should be aware of the fact that a lot of the knowledge from those people who came from Indonesia to Holland cann't be found in books.

[Henk]

Alan,

Thank you for the ki pedang nagaraja. I do recognize an item in my collection wich couldn't be identified. Now i know what it is.

[Lee]

Alan,
Looking at your picture of the item labeled "keris cuntrik" in the Den Pasar Museum, is this item from Lew's collection essentially of the same type?

Additional images and description

I bought it for my replica Hanuman keris holder to hold and also because I had acquired a very nice spear with similar sleeves (that I shall share on the general forum once I have pictures ready).

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Lee, I would be inclined to give it the same name.

HOWEVER

naming is always only applicable to a particular time, place, situation. If we decide to use a particular name for one or another object, I feel it is perhaps best to identify the reference for the name we use.

We think we know what a keris/kris/cris/creese is, but the word first appeared in Old Javanese, along with a few others that could well have at that time been the name for what we call a "keris" now. We simply do not know what the thing that we call a "keris" now was called in its place of origin in the 6th to 14th centuries.

In Old Javanese it seems possible that some weapons were given a name in a particular situation that represented the mode of use, so if the same weapon was used to thrust, rather than to slash, or cut, then the name changed.

The photo of the Neka piece that I posted is categorised as a "keris" and with the form of a pedang (dhapur). The same applies to the ligan, which is also named as "keris pedang".

In order to understand naming conventions in S. E. Asian Maritime societies --- and perhaps some other societies --- we need to understand not only the languages involved, but the way in which the people who used these languages thought.

[A. G. Maisey]

Just an after thought.

In respect of the word "tiuk" = "knife".

This word has the legitimate alternative spellings, and thus pronunciations of "tihuk" and "tiyuk".

In all cases the "k" is a glottal stop.

[A. G. Maisey]

Actually, if we want to use the name that was correct at the time this weapon was in fact being used as a weapon, we probably should name it as:-

"Keris Tuwek" , this would have been correct usage up until at least the early 1950's.

I doubt that you will find this name in any weapons reference, but it was correct usage before the present surge in "knowledge", much of which has been drawn from sources other than Bali.

[Ian]

Hi Athanase,

These swords have been discussed on this Forum over the last decade or more. One of the early discussions was here, and there are several more examples shown in that thread. Most of the threads relating to this sword have used the term cundrik, and they have often been attributed to Lombok.

Ian.

[David]

I actually think this blade bears only a slight resemblance to other blades presented here that have been called "cundrik" or "cuntrik". I also don't believe this blade is in the same category as those known by some collectors as Balinese wedung or tiuk pengentas. It does bear the most resemblance to the blade "Ki Pedang Nagaraja" that Alan has shown, though that blade is luk and this one straight. I would be most likely to refer to this as a keris pedang or perhaps just pedang.

[A. G. Maisey]

I reckon that pedang is probably as good as anything else, but if, just if we wish pay a nod of respect to what Balinese people themselves might refer to this sword as I think perhaps "Keris Pedang" or the older, more traditional "Keris Tewek" might be the way to go.

The definition of "tewek" is "a keris that is shaped like a sword".

Now, this requires us to think in a Balinese way about what a keris actually is, and that Balinese way aligns more closely with Pre-Islamic Jawa than with Islamic Jawa.

Alternatively, we can turn to Lombok and the most respected Lalu Djelengga (alm.) and then we have a choice of cundrik or sundrik or berang.

But if we choose to run with Lalu Djelengga we need to bear in mind that Lalu Djelengga was Muslim, not Balinese, so we are then using probably Sasak terminology to classify something that at least in the form that started this discussion, is decidedly Balinese.

Now we really are touching on the sillyness of that game that is so beloved by all collectors in all fields. We strive to give something its correct name, but do we bother to define the time or place that will form the framework for that definition? Do we even understand the languages involved?

My personal position on this is that geographic point of origin and place in time should be identified first, after that we should try to classify in accordance with the name that is most likely to have been used by the people of that geographic location at the time when the object in question was used.

If we do not do this, we might just as well name any object in accordance with our own naming conventions, which would make the item under discussion here a sword, or perhaps short sword, decorated with a dragon or serpent.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Henk

Can you imagine? The houses of our hosts where complete museums with the most magnificent items and weapons. And as my late friend used to say and i often have to think with a smile to his words: We are in a museum, Henk. But this is better. We are allowed to touch everything. And he smiled.

Yes Henk, I know similar collections!

Regards,
Detlef

[Lee]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes Lee, I would be inclined to give it the same name.

HOWEVER

Thank you ... and ...understood.

[Athanase]

Thank you for all your comments.
I think I'll make it simple and name it Pedang (or Peding).
For me the cundrik is a really different weapon, shorter and with a double edge. Besides, the only cundrik that I have isn't straight but has a wavy blade (and the only other that I saw at an antique dealer in France had the same blade, I have not yet found a cundrik with straight blade in my prices).

[A. G. Maisey]

Actually the word "cundrik" is Javanese it is a generic term for "dagger", and it is loosely used. Possibly the best examples of a cundrik that I know of are some agate hilted ladies daggers held by the Mangkunegaraan in Solo.

Then we have the item shown here, the only name I've ever known for or heard for this is "cundrik".

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Then we have the item shown here, the only name I've ever known for or heard for this is "cundrik".

Yes, I've learned the same, I know them also only as cundrik.

[kai]

Hello Alan,

I reckon that pedang is probably as good as anything else, but if, just if we wish pay a nod of respect to what Balinese people themselves might refer to this sword as I think perhaps "Keris Pedang" or the older, more traditional "Keris Tewek" might be the way to go.

The definition of "tewek" is "a keris that is shaped like a sword".

Now, this requires us to think in a Balinese way about what a keris actually is, and that Balinese way aligns more closely with Pre-Islamic Jawa than with Islamic Jawa.

Thanks for chiming in here!

Could you please expand why such a piece would be regarded by Balinese as "a keris that is shaped like a sword" rather than "a sword that is shaped like a sword"?

Is keris used here in a wider sense encompassing what would be regarded as tosan aji in Jawa?

Thanks in advance!

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

Kai, to give a complete and accurate response to your question I would probably need to be Theodore Pigeaud, and frankly, I am not even worthy to be this gentleman's shadow, assuming of course that he were still to be with us, which he is not, he was promoted about 30 years ago.

But I'll do my best to try, if only from the point of view as somebody who can only be regarded as an amateur in the fields involved.

We need to go back into Old Javanese literature, works such as the Nagakertagama and the Nawanatya. If we read these we find that there are mentions of a number of weapon types and we do have some difficulty in working out exactly what these weapon types would be known as now, in the 21st century.

For example, we have this passage in the Nagakertagama:-

"Exterminated were the animals, thrusted, lanced, cut, crissed, dying without a gasp”

the word "crissed" is of course a variant spelling of "krissed"/"kerissed", and in the original in Romanised Old Javanese the word is "kinris" (& angris, silah kris) and means to stab with a keris.

In the Nawanatya a word used for the keris is "twek", another word used for keris is "curigo".

If we look at the way in which each of these different words which can be understood as "keris" is used, what we find is this:-

"Curigo" is associated with a king.

"Twék" is associated with an honour given to a common man for bravery in combat.

"keris/kris/cris" is associated with use in a hunt

The word keris is derived from "iris", to cut or to slice.

So it seems that in Old Javanese the word "keris" (however we wish to spell it now) did not necessarily mean the specific weapon that we now recognise as a keris.

Modern Javanese has been heavily influenced by Islamic languages and Islamic culture, the nature of the keris as it has been known for the past few hundred years has been heavily influenced by Islamic culture and the effect this culture has had on Javanese society.

What we think of as a keris now, if we are thinking in accordance with the Javanese idea of a keris now, is very probably not the same as what the Javanese people in Pre-Islamic Jawa thought of as a keris.

Modern Balinese has not been subject to the same influences as has Modern Javanese, and we will find many words in Modern Balinese that we will not find in Modern Javanese, even though both owe their foundations to Old Javanese.

Language is a mirror of the way in which the users of that language think, for example, in structuring a sentence do the speakers place an adjective before a word, or after a word, do they begin the sentence with the most important idea contained in that sentence, or do they introduce that idea later in the sentence?

Now, with all of the above in mind, please consider your question:-

"Could you please expand why such a piece would be regarded by Balinese as "a keris that is shaped like a sword" rather than "a sword that is shaped like a sword"?"

I believe that it is obvious that a "pedang keris" is a keris that is shaped like a pedang, ie, that it is a form of keris, rather than a form of pedang.

When we come to the word "tewek", we have the word that is found in Old Javanese as "twek", that Pigeaud translates as "kris", and that in the context of its use in the Nawanatya can indeed be nothing other than what we now know as a keris.

In Modern Balinese "tewek" has a specific meaning, and that meaning is as I have given it, so clearly in Balinese thought the idea of "keris" encompasses more than does the Javanese or other ideas of exactly what a keris is. In fact, in a video interview that I witnessed being filmed I heard Pande Wayan Suteja Neka defining the keris pedang (ie, ligan or keris tewek) as a form of keris, not as a form of pedang.

Your second question:-

"Is keris used here in a wider sense encompassing what would be regarded as tosan aji in Jawa?"

requires analysis of cultural specifics in both Javanese and Balinese society at the present time and here is not really the place for that. Stripped to bare bones, the most I can probably say here is that Margaret Wiener explains quite clearly exactly where the heirloom keris stands in modern Balinese society.

"Tosan aji" is a Javanese concept. In simple terms this phrase can be understood as "respected iron/honoured iron"

"tosan" = "iron" in Kromo > from tos/atos = "hard"

"aji" = "value, worth" in ngoko; aji has a number of derivatives that include but are not limited to "respect, honour, value highly, at a particular price,in the amount of"; "aji" has a secondary meaning of "king"; as "kaji-kaji" it means a magic formula or a talisman; it can also be understood as a variant of "kaji" which means and can be used as the title for, a person who has undertaken a pilgrimage to Mecca.

The above should give a very clear idea of exactly how the keris is thought of in traditional Islamic Javanese society, and in addition one of major principles involved in understanding Javanese thought and values in general.

Javanese people and Balinese people do not think within quite the same parameters.