this is a challenge!!!

josue · 10th January 2008, 03:21 AM

hello everyone, i need to identify this really strange sword, im from guadalajara mexico and i´ve restored this sword a few weeks ago... do you know anything, like... the name, the culture, how can i describe the parts, etc... thank you very much for your help. and if you speak spanish it would be lovely, thats why this is challenge, not for the sword i think will be easy for you.. thanks, this is my mail if you want ecro_cuarta@yahoo.com.mx

ariel · 11th January 2008, 12:03 AM

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5798

Emanuel · 11th January 2008, 12:29 AM

Hehe, funny there being another such piece for discussion at the same time.

Welcome to the forum, Josue. As you can see from the other thread, this sword is of the zulfiqar type. It is indian and it may perhaps be called a tulwar. Search the forum for the following key-words and you'll learn more:

tulwar
firangi
zulfiqar/zulfikar
khanda

Here's a good shorcut: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2550

I may have written this on another thread, but E. Jaiwant Paul has one such sword in his "Arms and Armour, Traditional Weapons of India" identified as a 16th century Pahari sword from Himachal or Uttar Pradesh (Northern India). Don't know how likely that date is, but there you have it.

Regards,
Emanuel

josue · 11th January 2008, 05:09 AM

this sword belongs to the armys museum of mexico in guadalajara, it was a donation, its a shame that they dont have information, the only thing that they know its that maybe its from 17th century, they have another wonderfull pieces with curve blades, let me get some pictures to attach them, you´ll find it amazing and they all are original!!

josue · 11th January 2008, 05:12 AM

i almost forget it!!!
thanks !!!!!

VANDOO · 11th January 2008, 06:25 AM

WELCOME TO THE FORUM

A VERY NICE LOOKING SWORD I CAN'T ADD MORE TO WHAT HAS ALREADY BEEN SAID ABOUT IT BUT IF YOU CAN POST SOME CLOSE UP PICTURES OF ANY MARKINGS ON THE FORTE OR ANY DECORATIONS THOSE WHO STUDY SWORDS FROM INDIA MAY BE ABLE TO GIVE YOU MORE SPECIFIC INFORMATION ON THE SWORD. I LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING MORE EXAMPLES FROM THE MUSEUM OR YOUR COLLECTION.

CharlesS · 11th January 2008, 01:57 PM

Just because of the quality of the hilt and bolster on this one, I am wondering if it was more likely a "fighter" or at least an "intimidator", and perhaps not a piece made for sacrificial purposes as we have discussed before, even though we have acknowledged the impracticality of such a blade in combat. This piece was clearly made to be impressive in form AND quality.

Any thoughts??

josue · 12th January 2008, 01:33 AM

here is some pictures with details, and another strange sword

Emanuel · 12th January 2008, 02:45 AM

High quality indeed!

and very well preserved, too.

The second one is a Sudanese copy of a haladie I think.

VANDOO · 12th January 2008, 04:48 AM

I AGREE WITH MANOLO, THE HALADIE HAS THE WRITING ON THE BLADES WHICH WOULD LIKELY PLACE IT IN THE AREA OF SUDAN OR EGYPT, IT APPEARS TO HAVE A BONE GRIP. TO SEE SOME GOOD QUALITY INDIAN EXAMPLES WHICH RESEMBLE THE INDIAN SWORD YOU FIRST POSTED. SEARCH FOR HALADIE AND LOOK AT THE POST BY NOT2SHARP ON 8-07-2006 TIYLED "INTERESTING OLD HALADIE DAGGER"

Jim McDougall · 12th January 2008, 05:54 AM

Hello Josue,
I would like to welcome you to the forum as well, and congratulate you on the nice job you have done with this excellent addition to your museum.

This unusual and very formidable appearing weapon appears to be a Rajput example of the form of sword corresponding to the famed Zulfikar (there are numerous more proper spellings). What is most interesting is that this clearly Rajput weapon with distinctive 'Hindu basket hilt' is mounted with heavy bifurcated blade of a form that is of course often represented on Muslim edged weapons.
This form of hilt is of course seen on the straight bladed Rajput sword known as the 'khanda' and in some cases with a heavy, somewhat recurved blade known as the sosun patta.

Egerton (p.105) notes that the "...broad, curved sword 'tegha' "is used by
"Mohammedan Rajputs". Since the Rajputs were indeed often in degree allied with the Mughals, this may explain the odd combination.

Egerton (#658) illustrates a shamshir from Peshawar, which has in contrast a simple curved shamshir blade with wavy edges and bifurcated point. This appears late 18th century.

It is known that Rajputs in a number of instances had heavy bladed tulwars with these serrated edges on the blades, and interestingly the edges are on both sides of the blade though these typically had one section at center of percussion left unserrated. This would suggest the serration had more of a symbolic or possibly ceremonial application.

It seems that bifurcated swords associated with the Zulfikar representation are typically serrated in most of the examples seen (though I have seen Indian tulwars with such blades that are not). The term 'fikar' in Arabic if I understand correctly has been interpreted to mean, loosely, wavy edges. This may have some bearing on the interpretive design of the blade.

Please excuse the complexity here, but the outstanding sword you have there is a indeed a complex hybrid.

For classification I would suggest this is a Rajput sword which may be termed a 'sapola' (E. Jaiwent Paul, "Arms and Armour: Traditional Weapons of India", p.63, "...the sapola is a sword with a bifurcated point") and is likely from regions in Northern India, dating mid to late 18th century. *

In my opinion this type weapon, though as noted, seems quite formidable, I would feel it is more likely ceremonial, as Rajputs deeply revered the sword and this elaborate example certainly carried deep symbolism.

* I feel that Paul's attribution though probably regionally correct may be quite optimistic in assigning 16th century period to this example and form.

The second weapon with double blades is as noted a Sudanese example from late 19th century of the similar double bladed Rajput weapon termed the 'haladie'. These were typically used by Mahdist forces, and the blades are heavily etched in 'thuluth' script. The ivory handle is somewhat unusual and may suggest the weapon of a tribal leader or dignitary.

All very best regards,
Jim

10th January 2008, 03:21 AM	#1
josue Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 5	this is a challenge!!! hello everyone, i need to identify this really strange sword, im from guadalajara mexico and i´ve restored this sword a few weeks ago... do you know anything, like... the name, the culture, how can i describe the parts, etc... thank you very much for your help. and if you speak spanish it would be lovely, thats why this is challenge, not for the sword i think will be easy for you.. thanks, this is my mail if you want ecro_cuarta@yahoo.com.mx Attached Images

11th January 2008, 05:09 AM	#4
josue Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 5	more information this sword belongs to the armys museum of mexico in guadalajara, it was a donation, its a shame that they dont have information, the only thing that they know its that maybe its from 17th century, they have another wonderfull pieces with curve blades, let me get some pictures to attach them, you´ll find it amazing and they all are original!!

11th January 2008, 05:12 AM	#5
josue Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 5	ooh!! i almost forget it!!! thanks !!!!!

11th January 2008, 01:57 PM	#7
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Just because of the quality of the hilt and bolster on this one, I am wondering if it was more likely a "fighter" or at least an "intimidator", and perhaps not a piece made for sacrificial purposes as we have discussed before, even though we have acknowledged the impracticality of such a blade in combat. This piece was clearly made to be impressive in form AND quality. Any thoughts?? Last edited by CharlesS; 11th January 2008 at 03:44 PM.

12th January 2008, 01:33 AM	#8
josue Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 5	detail of the sword here is some pictures with details, and another strange sword Attached Images

11th January 2008, 12:03 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5798

11th January 2008, 12:29 AM	#3
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hehe, funny there being another such piece for discussion at the same time. Welcome to the forum, Josue. As you can see from the other thread, this sword is of the zulfiqar type. It is indian and it may perhaps be called a tulwar. Search the forum for the following key-words and you'll learn more: tulwar firangi zulfiqar/zulfikar khanda Here's a good shorcut: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2550 I may have written this on another thread, but E. Jaiwant Paul has one such sword in his "Arms and Armour, Traditional Weapons of India" identified as a 16th century Pahari sword from Himachal or Uttar Pradesh (Northern India). Don't know how likely that date is, but there you have it. Regards, Emanuel

11th January 2008, 06:25 AM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	WELCOME TO THE FORUM A VERY NICE LOOKING SWORD I CAN'T ADD MORE TO WHAT HAS ALREADY BEEN SAID ABOUT IT BUT IF YOU CAN POST SOME CLOSE UP PICTURES OF ANY MARKINGS ON THE FORTE OR ANY DECORATIONS THOSE WHO STUDY SWORDS FROM INDIA MAY BE ABLE TO GIVE YOU MORE SPECIFIC INFORMATION ON THE SWORD. I LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING MORE EXAMPLES FROM THE MUSEUM OR YOUR COLLECTION.

12th January 2008, 02:45 AM	#9
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	High quality indeed! and very well preserved, too. The second one is a Sudanese copy of a haladie I think.

12th January 2008, 04:48 AM	#10
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I AGREE WITH MANOLO, THE HALADIE HAS THE WRITING ON THE BLADES WHICH WOULD LIKELY PLACE IT IN THE AREA OF SUDAN OR EGYPT, IT APPEARS TO HAVE A BONE GRIP. TO SEE SOME GOOD QUALITY INDIAN EXAMPLES WHICH RESEMBLE THE INDIAN SWORD YOU FIRST POSTED. SEARCH FOR HALADIE AND LOOK AT THE POST BY NOT2SHARP ON 8-07-2006 TIYLED "INTERESTING OLD HALADIE DAGGER"

12th January 2008, 05:54 AM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	Hello Josue, I would like to welcome you to the forum as well, and congratulate you on the nice job you have done with this excellent addition to your museum. This unusual and very formidable appearing weapon appears to be a Rajput example of the form of sword corresponding to the famed Zulfikar (there are numerous more proper spellings). What is most interesting is that this clearly Rajput weapon with distinctive 'Hindu basket hilt' is mounted with heavy bifurcated blade of a form that is of course often represented on Muslim edged weapons. This form of hilt is of course seen on the straight bladed Rajput sword known as the 'khanda' and in some cases with a heavy, somewhat recurved blade known as the sosun patta. Egerton (p.105) notes that the "...broad, curved sword 'tegha' "is used by "Mohammedan Rajputs". Since the Rajputs were indeed often in degree allied with the Mughals, this may explain the odd combination. Egerton (#658) illustrates a shamshir from Peshawar, which has in contrast a simple curved shamshir blade with wavy edges and bifurcated point. This appears late 18th century. It is known that Rajputs in a number of instances had heavy bladed tulwars with these serrated edges on the blades, and interestingly the edges are on both sides of the blade though these typically had one section at center of percussion left unserrated. This would suggest the serration had more of a symbolic or possibly ceremonial application. It seems that bifurcated swords associated with the Zulfikar representation are typically serrated in most of the examples seen (though I have seen Indian tulwars with such blades that are not). The term 'fikar' in Arabic if I understand correctly has been interpreted to mean, loosely, wavy edges. This may have some bearing on the interpretive design of the blade. Please excuse the complexity here, but the outstanding sword you have there is a indeed a complex hybrid. For classification I would suggest this is a Rajput sword which may be termed a 'sapola' (E. Jaiwent Paul, "Arms and Armour: Traditional Weapons of India", p.63, "...the sapola is a sword with a bifurcated point") and is likely from regions in Northern India, dating mid to late 18th century. * In my opinion this type weapon, though as noted, seems quite formidable, I would feel it is more likely ceremonial, as Rajputs deeply revered the sword and this elaborate example certainly carried deep symbolism. * I feel that Paul's attribution though probably regionally correct may be quite optimistic in assigning 16th century period to this example and form. The second weapon with double blades is as noted a Sudanese example from late 19th century of the similar double bladed Rajput weapon termed the 'haladie'. These were typically used by Mahdist forces, and the blades are heavily etched in 'thuluth' script. The ivory handle is somewhat unusual and may suggest the weapon of a tribal leader or dignitary. All very best regards, Jim