Torador barrel for comment.

Pukka Bundook · 15th August 2015, 03:30 PM

Morning Gentlemen,

A while ago I purchased this matchlock Torador barrel.
It is still in the UK at present, but would value opinions on it.
The first pictures are as it came into my friend and agent's hands, and the latter pictures are after a very light and not at all thorough cleaning.

I gather the bore is 'lovely and smooth' so that is pleasing!
Now, do you chaps have any idea where about it came from?
In Eggerton's book, there is a depiction of a barrel with quite similar decoration and attributed to Oude. Does this sound right ?

Any ideas of age? Yes, I do know dating any arms from India can be very difficult as the styles remained fairly static over long periods.
Overall length 52 inches.

Thank you for your time,

Richard.

Battara · 15th August 2015, 06:35 PM

Love the silver koftgari. Would be interesting to clean and etch to see if the barrel is a twist core damascus.

rickystl · 15th August 2015, 07:19 PM

Hi Pukka.
That is a really nice Torador barrel. With some very nice hammer decoration and silver mounts. Please do post additional photos after you receive the gun. I would like to see what the breech plug looks like. The barrel looks very early.

The pan appears to have been made without a movable cover. And your contact mentions the bore is in very good clean condition. Hmmm. After you receive the barrel, see if the outside patina on the barrel is the same color/shade all around. Or if it is a differnt shade of patina on the lower half (under portion) of the barrel, which would be the evidence the barrel was in a wood stock.
If the bore is in good shape, and the patina even the length of the barrel, it could be this barrel was completed, but never mounted to a gunstock. (?)

Your new pics will be interesting to see.
Rick.

Pukka Bundook · 16th August 2015, 05:23 AM

Battara,

Yes, the koftgari seems well done and a good thickness, unlike the modern version that shows up now.

Rick,
I have some extra photos I cam attach for you. Plug doesn't show well, and appears forged in place as to be expected.

The recoil lug appears to have been pulled out on this one, either through accident or yanking the barrel from the stock without removing the pin.
To answer your question;
It would Appear to have been in a stock at some time, but not at all recently.
I too was wondering about no provision for a pan cover. No answer on that!

You know I mentioned Oude as a possible place of origin?
well Googling that today, I found an interesting list of matchlocks and barrels From Oude.
These were taken at the surrender of Oude in 1859.
An interesting fact, is that many if not most of these are silver mounted, and have a 'belled muzzle".
These were in; "The Official Catalogue of the Museum of Artillery,
Rotund, Woolwich", by Brig. Gen J H LeFroy, RA FRS. 1864.

In all, 20 or so barrels/matchlocks are mentioned, and the very first has a 52" barrel like this one. I think all but 2 were "silver inlaid". These 2 being gold.
Interesting that one matchlock has in its description, "with a cover to the vent" which makes it sound like the others do not.

Please see link.

Richard.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=X8o...20Oude&f=false

rickystl · 16th August 2015, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Battara,

Yes, the koftgari seems well done and a good thickness, unlike the modern version that shows up now.

Rick,
I have some extra photos I cam attach for you. Plug doesn't show well, and appears forged in place as to be expected.

The recoil lug appears to have been pulled out on this one, either through accident or yanking the barrel from the stock without removing the pin.
To answer your question;
It would Appear to have been in a stock at some time, but not at all recently.
I too was wondering about no provision for a pan cover. No answer on that!

You know I mentioned Oude as a possible place of origin?
well Googling that today, I found an interesting list of matchlocks and barrels From Oude.
These were taken at the surrender of Oude in 1859.
An interesting fact, is that many if not most of these are silver mounted, and have a 'belled muzzle".
These were in; "The Official Catalogue of the Museum of Artillery,
Rotund, Woolwich", by Brig. Gen J H LeFroy, RA FRS. 1864.

In all, 20 or so barrels/matchlocks are mentioned, and the very first has a 52" barrel like this one. I think all but 2 were "silver inlaid". These 2 being gold.
Interesting that one matchlock has in its description, "with a cover to the vent" which makes it sound like the others do not.

Please see link.

Richard.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=X8o...20Oude&f=false

Hi Richard.
Thanks so much for your response. I was just wondering if your barrel was plugged in the same manner as Stewart's and mine. And it sounds like it is. I've seen one other variation of plugging the breech using a fairly thick, flat plate with a notch cut in for a rear sight. The plate is just slightly larger diameter than the breech of the barrel. The barrel they cut up in the "Mughal Matchlock" YouTube video had this style.
Sorry to hear your recoil lug is missing. But that seems to add proof that the barrel was mounted in a stock at some point.
Yes, it's obvious some of these barrels were made without pan covers. With the barrels being made so robust, I've wondered why the pan covers were made of such a thin piece of metal? It seems that most of the barrels you see today have the cover broke off. I'm going to have a new cover made for mine using a bit thicker iron, since mine is already missing.
Thanks for the Link with that list of guns. Super interesting!!! Especially the notes of barrel decoration.
By the way, the length of my barrel is 55.5".
Your barrel, with the silver work should display very well.
Rick.

Pukka Bundook · 16th August 2015, 06:22 PM

Rick,

I can fit another recoil lug, and will likely stock it up. It will not hurt the barrel at all to do so.
I wonder if the museum in the link has any on-line photos, And if they have any of these pieces still, from 1864....Indeed I wonder if the museum still exists!
Always something to look up!

I suppose the pan cover only need be sturdy enough to divert the match, but they do seem frail. I too would make one a little thicker.
On my homemade English matchlock, I added a 'front' to the pan, for extra security. (Read 'back' for an Indian matchlock, as the serpentine works the other way!)

rickystl · 16th August 2015, 08:10 PM

Hi Richard.
Thanks for the additional photos. I can see your barrel is sealed up similar to mine and Stewart's. If you want, I can take close up photos of my recoil lug for you to use when the time comes.
Meantime, here is an original Torador trigger bar and spring assemble, still in working order.

Rick.

kahnjar1 · 16th August 2015, 10:48 PM

I note that Rick and Richard mention a "recoil lug" in relation to Torador barrels.
Can you explain the purpose of this please.
In most firearms the recoil is absorbed by the stock, and the shooters shoulder/arm.
The barrels of my two matchlocks both have a pin holding the barrel firmly in place which goes thru a lug with a hole in it. Barrel bands as well obviously.
Stu

rickystl · 16th August 2015, 11:17 PM

Hi Stu.
What we are calling a recoil lug on the bottom of the barrel where the pin goes through simply serves the same purpose as a barrel tang on other guns. The tang being held to the stock with a screw.
It's interesting that these Toradors were built without the use of a single screw. Everything held together with bands or pins.
Rick.

kahnjar1 · 16th August 2015, 11:30 PM

OK Thanks. For some reason I was visualising a wooden peg of some sort

I guess the term "recoil" confused me.
Stu

Pukka Bundook · 17th August 2015, 04:08 AM

My fault Stu,

I have seen these with a fairly large square peg extending down into the stock, obviously helping spread the weight of recoil over a large area. The ones depicted in this thread appear more just to hold the breech -end of the barrel down, like Rick mentions as a tang screw would.
Sorry for the confusion!

Richard.

kahnjar1 · 17th August 2015, 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

My fault Stu,

I have seen these with a fairly large square peg extending down into the stock, obviously helping spread the weight of recoil over a large area. The ones depicted in this thread appear more just to hold the breech -end of the barrel down, like Rick mentions as a tang screw would.
Sorry for the confusion!

Richard.

No need to apologise. I was just having a "senior" moment.

rickystl · 17th August 2015, 11:16 AM

I have "Senior" moments all the time.

Rick.

kahnjar1 · 17th August 2015, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

I have "Senior" moments all the time.

Rick.

Great aren't they!!

Pukka Bundook · 18th August 2015, 02:53 PM

Rick,

Thanks for the photo of the spring and scear arm. Not actually seen the 'guts' before.

Museum of Artillery, Woolwich:

It appears the museum is still there, but sadly, will be closing in 2017 through lack of visitors/funding. Many of the arms have already been moved to another museum. I would hope they will be put on display as If left in storage, all kinds of evil can befall them.

Kind regards,
Richard.

rickystl · 22nd August 2015, 06:07 PM

Hi Richard.
Yes, it might be the only original "spare" around. Neven seen another for sale. I pick up those parts as I find them in case I or another collector has a need at some time.

It's always sad to hear of an arms museum closing due to a lack of outside interest.

Rick.

15th August 2015, 03:30 PM	#1
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Torador barrel for comment. Morning Gentlemen, A while ago I purchased this matchlock Torador barrel. It is still in the UK at present, but would value opinions on it. The first pictures are as it came into my friend and agent's hands, and the latter pictures are after a very light and not at all thorough cleaning. I gather the bore is 'lovely and smooth' so that is pleasing! Now, do you chaps have any idea where about it came from? In Eggerton's book, there is a depiction of a barrel with quite similar decoration and attributed to Oude. Does this sound right ? Any ideas of age? Yes, I do know dating any arms from India can be very difficult as the styles remained fairly static over long periods. Overall length 52 inches. Thank you for your time, Richard. Attached Images

16th August 2015, 05:23 AM	#4
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Battara, Yes, the koftgari seems well done and a good thickness, unlike the modern version that shows up now. Rick, I have some extra photos I cam attach for you. Plug doesn't show well, and appears forged in place as to be expected. The recoil lug appears to have been pulled out on this one, either through accident or yanking the barrel from the stock without removing the pin. To answer your question; It would Appear to have been in a stock at some time, but not at all recently. I too was wondering about no provision for a pan cover. No answer on that! You know I mentioned Oude as a possible place of origin? well Googling that today, I found an interesting list of matchlocks and barrels From Oude. These were taken at the surrender of Oude in 1859. An interesting fact, is that many if not most of these are silver mounted, and have a 'belled muzzle". These were in; "The Official Catalogue of the Museum of Artillery, Rotund, Woolwich", by Brig. Gen J H LeFroy, RA FRS. 1864. In all, 20 or so barrels/matchlocks are mentioned, and the very first has a 52" barrel like this one. I think all but 2 were "silver inlaid". These 2 being gold. Interesting that one matchlock has in its description, "with a cover to the vent" which makes it sound like the others do not. Please see link. Richard. https://books.google.ca/books?id=X8o...20Oude&f=false Last edited by Pukka Bundook; 16th August 2015 at 05:29 AM. Reason: Removing an error!

16th August 2015, 06:22 PM	#6
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Rick, I can fit another recoil lug, and will likely stock it up. It will not hurt the barrel at all to do so. I wonder if the museum in the link has any on-line photos, And if they have any of these pieces still, from 1864....Indeed I wonder if the museum still exists! Always something to look up! I suppose the pan cover only need be sturdy enough to divert the match, but they do seem frail. I too would make one a little thicker. On my homemade English matchlock, I added a 'front' to the pan, for extra security. (Read 'back' for an Indian matchlock, as the serpentine works the other way!) Attached Images Last edited by Pukka Bundook; 16th August 2015 at 06:32 PM.

16th August 2015, 08:10 PM	#7
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Richard. Thanks for the additional photos. I can see your barrel is sealed up similar to mine and Stewart's. If you want, I can take close up photos of my recoil lug for you to use when the time comes. Meantime, here is an original Torador trigger bar and spring assemble, still in working order. Rick. Attached Images

16th August 2015, 10:48 PM	#8
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,741	Recoil lug? I note that Rick and Richard mention a "recoil lug" in relation to Torador barrels. Can you explain the purpose of this please. In most firearms the recoil is absorbed by the stock, and the shooters shoulder/arm. The barrels of my two matchlocks both have a pin holding the barrel firmly in place which goes thru a lug with a hole in it. Barrel bands as well obviously. Stu Attached Images

15th August 2015, 06:35 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	Love the silver koftgari. Would be interesting to clean and etch to see if the barrel is a twist core damascus.

15th August 2015, 07:19 PM	#3
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Pukka. That is a really nice Torador barrel. With some very nice hammer decoration and silver mounts. Please do post additional photos after you receive the gun. I would like to see what the breech plug looks like. The barrel looks very early. The pan appears to have been made without a movable cover. And your contact mentions the bore is in very good clean condition. Hmmm. After you receive the barrel, see if the outside patina on the barrel is the same color/shade all around. Or if it is a differnt shade of patina on the lower half (under portion) of the barrel, which would be the evidence the barrel was in a wood stock. If the bore is in good shape, and the patina even the length of the barrel, it could be this barrel was completed, but never mounted to a gunstock. (?) Your new pics will be interesting to see. Rick.

16th August 2015, 11:17 PM	#9
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Stu. What we are calling a recoil lug on the bottom of the barrel where the pin goes through simply serves the same purpose as a barrel tang on other guns. The tang being held to the stock with a screw. It's interesting that these Toradors were built without the use of a single screw. Everything held together with bands or pins. Rick.

16th August 2015, 11:30 PM	#10
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,741	OK Thanks. For some reason I was visualising a wooden peg of some sort I guess the term "recoil" confused me. Stu

17th August 2015, 04:08 AM	#11
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	My fault Stu, I have seen these with a fairly large square peg extending down into the stock, obviously helping spread the weight of recoil over a large area. The ones depicted in this thread appear more just to hold the breech -end of the barrel down, like Rick mentions as a tang screw would. Sorry for the confusion! Richard. Last edited by Pukka Bundook; 17th August 2015 at 04:09 AM. Reason: to change tnag to 'tang'.

17th August 2015, 11:16 AM	#13
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	I have "Senior" moments all the time. Rick.

18th August 2015, 02:53 PM	#15
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Rick, Thanks for the photo of the spring and scear arm. Not actually seen the 'guts' before. Museum of Artillery, Woolwich: It appears the museum is still there, but sadly, will be closing in 2017 through lack of visitors/funding. Many of the arms have already been moved to another museum. I would hope they will be put on display as If left in storage, all kinds of evil can befall them. Kind regards, Richard.

22nd August 2015, 06:07 PM	#16
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Richard. Yes, it might be the only original "spare" around. Neven seen another for sale. I pick up those parts as I find them in case I or another collector has a need at some time. It's always sad to hear of an arms museum closing due to a lack of outside interest. Rick.