Dagger id question

Neil · 19th July 2012, 04:28 AM

I recently acquired this dagger as part of a group knives. This one in particular is outside my field of study so I am at a loss for what it is exactly. The dagger is 17" long total, with a horn grip. As seen in the pictures one side of the blade has a central ridge while the other side is flat. I would really appreciate some help with the who, what, when, and where of this piece. Thanks in advance for any insights.

Tim Simmons · 19th July 2012, 07:39 AM

Looks like a WW1 trench knife. This is now in another members collection.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=dirk

Henk · 19th July 2012, 07:41 AM

Looks Philipine to me. I think the more knowledgeable members in this field wil jump in.

Rich · 19th July 2012, 12:25 PM

Or possibly a variation on the Chinese "bowie" and dirks??

Rich S

Neil · 19th July 2012, 12:50 PM

Thank you guys for your input so far. Interestingly enough it did come with a small group of old Chinese knives. Chinese weapons are what I am most interested in. Although from my experience this piece does not seem fit in that category. I could be wrong though.

katana · 19th July 2012, 12:56 PM

The hilt does seem to be Chinese 'styled' ....the blade, perhaps, a recycled bayonet

Regards David

trenchwarfare · 19th July 2012, 11:24 PM

The blade does appear to be that of a socket bayonet. Hard to pinpoint a time and place. I've seen this style dagger from the American Revolution, War of Northern Aggression, WWI, and WWII.

Atlantia · 19th July 2012, 11:34 PM

Looks like a strange Chinese fighting knife to me.

VANDOO · 19th July 2012, 11:42 PM

HERE ARE TWO KNIVES I HAVE WITH THIS THREE SIDED BLADE CONFIGURATION. FLAT ON ONE SIDE AND WITH TWO SIDES MEETING IN THE MIDDLE FORMING A THICK CENTER RIDGE. THE LARGE OLDER ONE IS DEFINITELY CHINESE THE SMALLER I AM NOT SURE OF. I SUSPECT THIS IS AN OLD CHINESE FORM THAT MAY HAVE BEEN SPREAD BY CHINESE MERCHANTS AS THEY TRADED MOST EVERYWHERE. PERHAPS SOMEONE WILL HAVE A CHINESE NAME FOR THIS FORM OF BLADE. AS FAR AS I KNOW IT IS NOT A COMMON FORM.

DaveA · 21st July 2012, 01:16 AM

The pictures below are of my double knife, a "river pirate" weapon that is a variant of the hudiedao.

I believe your dagger is one knife in a matched pair of hudiedao.

River piracy along the Yangtze River was rampant in the 19th century. Pirates battled the military for nearly a century. These swords without guards can be instantly reversed in the hand and used with the back edge to subdue an opponent without lethal cuts. The lack of a hand guard distinguishes the ‘river pirate” type from other hudiedao. The hudiedao were widespread by the 1860’s and their design is thought to be derived from maritime boarding knives. The overall length of each of my knives is 14 ¼ inches and each blade is 10 ¼ inches.

Gavin Nugent · 21st July 2012, 02:01 AM

Neil,

I too would suggest Chinese in origin.

DaveA,

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveA

The pictures below are of my double knife, a "river pirate" weapon that is a variant of the hudiedao.
The lack of a hand guard distinguishes the ‘river pirate” type from other hudiedao. The hudiedao were widespread by the 1860’s and their design is thought to be derived from maritime boarding knives.

I am curious to know more about the "River Pirate" attribution and were specific supporting information can be found.
I'd be very surprised if piracy had any standard of weapon for such a general attribution when considering guardless varieties known share similar grips to the guarded type suggestion to me the factory making these weapons made many varients including curved varieties with raised yelman and brass tonkou.

Thanks

Gavin

Neil · 21st July 2012, 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

Neil,

I too would suggest Chinese in origin.

Gavin,
What aspects in particular give you the impression that it is Chinese
Thanks,
Neil

Nathaniel · 21st July 2012, 04:47 AM

Gavin Nugent · 21st July 2012, 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil

Gavin,
What aspects in particular give you the impression that it is Chinese
Thanks,
Neil

Such a weapons is hard pressed to find a conclusive answer.
The first aspect for me would be the thick bronze guard.
The hilt looked curved or at least on an angle that swayed me to the Philippines with Henk indicated and the faceted hilt shape also reminds me of some weapons found in the region but I again come back to the guard and that I have had two (and seen other) Chinese knives with simple thick guards and European like blades.
Both I had were modified bayonets, one being of this form like yours but with a cylindrical all brass hilt of slightly differing form, the other I see Nathaniel has picked up....although showing rather standard fittings does have a modified single edged bayonet blade.
Recycled goods are seen often in Chinese weapons of the working class and I am sure other regions but for me, I run with China.

Other images of the butt and tang might offer more clues too.

Gav

Robert · 21st July 2012, 07:14 AM

Hello Neil, and may I add that this is a very interesting dagger you have found. Like Gav, I would very much like to see more images of the butt and tang of this piece to help in its identification. Now for the blade itself, I do not believe that it was ever part of any bayonet but instead is a common style from both the Philippines as well Spain and other areas that were once under Spanish rule. The faceted hilt is also very Philippine in style while the guard is more Chinese in appearance. This piece could very well be a Chinese/Philippine influenced design and possibly from Luzon. Like I stated earlier, more pictures of the end of the hilt would help in identifying it place of origin.

Robert

Neil · 21st July 2012, 01:29 PM

I really appreciate everyone's insightful comments. I will definitely post more pictures as requested.

At this point I am feeling the Philippine suggestions make the most sense to me. I know I have seen this blade form before, and when Robert mentioned Spanish influence it rung a bell as I look at the piece as a whole. I really see no Chinese commonalities that I am familiar with aside from the association of the group of knives it came in. I believe the former owner was a knife collector so it could have snuck in there under the radar. Of course that is just my opinion.

Neil · 21st July 2012, 10:04 PM

Here are the additional pictures.

Nathaniel · 21st July 2012, 10:29 PM

Good thought Robert, I can easily see how it could be a hybrid of a ethnically Chinese smith in the Philipines with the Spanish/ Philipino influence. The Chinese traded and settled all over Asia.

Sajen · 10th June 2015, 11:23 PM

By searching in old threads I stumbled over this thread. I think that the dagger in question is a Tres Kantos dagger from Luzon.

Regards,
Detlef

19th July 2012, 04:28 AM	#1
Neil Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 109	Dagger id question I recently acquired this dagger as part of a group knives. This one in particular is outside my field of study so I am at a loss for what it is exactly. The dagger is 17" long total, with a horn grip. As seen in the pictures one side of the blade has a central ridge while the other side is flat. I would really appreciate some help with the who, what, when, and where of this piece. Thanks in advance for any insights. Attached Images

19th July 2012, 11:42 PM	#9
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	HERE ARE TWO KNIVES I HAVE WITH THIS THREE SIDED BLADE CONFIGURATION. FLAT ON ONE SIDE AND WITH TWO SIDES MEETING IN THE MIDDLE FORMING A THICK CENTER RIDGE. THE LARGE OLDER ONE IS DEFINITELY CHINESE THE SMALLER I AM NOT SURE OF. I SUSPECT THIS IS AN OLD CHINESE FORM THAT MAY HAVE BEEN SPREAD BY CHINESE MERCHANTS AS THEY TRADED MOST EVERYWHERE. PERHAPS SOMEONE WILL HAVE A CHINESE NAME FOR THIS FORM OF BLADE. AS FAR AS I KNOW IT IS NOT A COMMON FORM. Attached Images

21st July 2012, 01:16 AM	#10
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 413	One half of a double knife set - China river pirate The pictures below are of my double knife, a "river pirate" weapon that is a variant of the hudiedao. I believe your dagger is one knife in a matched pair of hudiedao. River piracy along the Yangtze River was rampant in the 19th century. Pirates battled the military for nearly a century. These swords without guards can be instantly reversed in the hand and used with the back edge to subdue an opponent without lethal cuts. The lack of a hand guard distinguishes the ‘river pirate” type from other hudiedao. The hudiedao were widespread by the 1860’s and their design is thought to be derived from maritime boarding knives. The overall length of each of my knives is 14 ¼ inches and each blade is 10 ¼ inches. Attached Images

21st July 2012, 04:47 AM	#13
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Here are some examples I could come up with.... http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=hudiedao http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=hudiedao http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=hudiedao http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=hudiedao http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=hudiedao http://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/s424_full.html http://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/s432_full.html http://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/s969_full.html http://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/s970_full.html http://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/s009_full.html http://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/s340_full.html http://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/s457_full.html http://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/s427_full.html http://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/s013_full.html http://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/s011_full.html http://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/s573_full.html http://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/s244_full.html http://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/s071_full.html http://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/s010_full.html Neil, my first thoughts where a Chinese hybrid/ oddity too when I saw your pictures...not sure though...I know you have handled some of these before like the above right? Last edited by Nathaniel; 21st July 2012 at 05:04 AM.

21st July 2012, 10:04 PM	#17
Neil Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 109	Here are the additional pictures. Attached Images

19th July 2012, 07:39 AM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Looks like a WW1 trench knife. This is now in another members collection. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=dirk

19th July 2012, 07:41 AM	#3
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Looks Philipine to me. I think the more knowledgeable members in this field wil jump in.

19th July 2012, 12:25 PM	#4
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	Or possibly a variation on the Chinese "bowie" and dirks?? Rich S

19th July 2012, 12:50 PM	#5
Neil Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 109	Thank you guys for your input so far. Interestingly enough it did come with a small group of old Chinese knives. Chinese weapons are what I am most interested in. Although from my experience this piece does not seem fit in that category. I could be wrong though.

19th July 2012, 12:56 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	The hilt does seem to be Chinese 'styled' ....the blade, perhaps, a recycled bayonet Regards David

19th July 2012, 11:24 PM	#7
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	The blade does appear to be that of a socket bayonet. Hard to pinpoint a time and place. I've seen this style dagger from the American Revolution, War of Northern Aggression, WWI, and WWII.

19th July 2012, 11:34 PM	#8
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Looks like a strange Chinese fighting knife to me.

21st July 2012, 07:14 AM	#15
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Neil, and may I add that this is a very interesting dagger you have found. Like Gav, I would very much like to see more images of the butt and tang of this piece to help in its identification. Now for the blade itself, I do not believe that it was ever part of any bayonet but instead is a common style from both the Philippines as well Spain and other areas that were once under Spanish rule. The faceted hilt is also very Philippine in style while the guard is more Chinese in appearance. This piece could very well be a Chinese/Philippine influenced design and possibly from Luzon. Like I stated earlier, more pictures of the end of the hilt would help in identifying it place of origin. Robert

21st July 2012, 01:29 PM	#16
Neil Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 109	I really appreciate everyone's insightful comments. I will definitely post more pictures as requested. At this point I am feeling the Philippine suggestions make the most sense to me. I know I have seen this blade form before, and when Robert mentioned Spanish influence it rung a bell as I look at the piece as a whole. I really see no Chinese commonalities that I am familiar with aside from the association of the group of knives it came in. I believe the former owner was a knife collector so it could have snuck in there under the radar. Of course that is just my opinion.

21st July 2012, 10:29 PM	#18
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Good thought Robert, I can easily see how it could be a hybrid of a ethnically Chinese smith in the Philipines with the Spanish/ Philipino influence. The Chinese traded and settled all over Asia.

10th June 2015, 11:23 PM	#19
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,761	By searching in old threads I stumbled over this thread. I think that the dagger in question is a Tres Kantos dagger from Luzon. Regards, Detlef