talking to an old PI soldier

[Bill]

who served in the Southern Philippines from 1950-83. A few interesting things. The use of swords, spears, & bow/arrow against government soldiers was common untill 1970, then groups that opposed the gov. were funded & supplied from outside the PI, & the groups went from "primitive" weapons to superior weapons almost overnight. The interesting thing is that this fellow states it was easier to fight the better armed groups, as earlier ambushes were always well planned, & a quick retreat into boobytraps for the gov. soldiers. Better armed, opposition groups, became over confident, & stood thier ground; often to the avantage of the better trained soldiers. Typical of attacks, earlier in his career, were single archers hidding in trees, or groups that would have the high ground & shoot high into the air, so that the arrows would be coming staight down. Krismen often would wait in tall grass, & were quite feared, the wounds from the kris were always fatal, he states. He gave me many examples of the kris attacks & the damage done, as he said, the body never stops the blade. As to the barung, I was surprised, his opinion was that it was not as deadly as the kris. He stated he never saw a man survive a kris wound, but did see men survive barung wounds.

[Tim Simmons]

Stab is more fatal than slash Very interesting.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Stab is more fatal than slash Very interesting.

Hmm , I never considered the Moro kris to be primarily a stabbing weapon .
A longer blade possibly used with two hands = more mass , force , and a chopping / drawn blow combination .

Now that'll kill ya .

[nechesh]

I'd have to agree with Rick there, Tim. Many Moro keris have relatively dull points and wouldn't necessarily be very good stabbing weapons. Now that Chop and draw blow, ouch!

[Ian]

One of the purported advantages of a wavy edged blade over a straight edged one is the inherently longer cutting edge of the wavy one for blades of the same overall length. The wavy blade may allow greater contact with the target and (supposedly) permit a deeper cut than a straight edge. Don't know if this theory holds any water, but I have heard it expressed on several occasions. There is some intuitive appeal to the argument. Perhaps some of our Filipino escrima experts can provide some definitive comments.

Ian.

[Freddy]

I agree to the fact the a stab is far more dangerous than a slash.

A stab wound with a knife (with straight or wavy blade) will often cause internal damage to the body. I've seen victims with stab wounds running around as if nothing happened. Often these people were excited by the event.
Afterwards in the hospital their condition became critical as it's difficult to know the damage inflicted inside the body. From the outside, you only see a puncture wound. That's why it's important to take stab victims to the E.R. as soon as possible.

Others who had slash wounds were bleeding a lot, and this looks far worse. But unless an important artery is cut, the wound will be not as life threatening.

Whether a wavy blade is more dangerous than a straight one, I don't know. Kerises are made with both types of blade. Isn't it a fact that the form of a keris blade is more symbolic : straight blade is the Naga in rest, wavy blade is the Naga in movement ?

[Rick]

Hi Freddy,
Again in the context we are speaking of ( Moro swords ) the weapon's primary use (19c. on) is not as a stabbing weapon but as a slashing , chopping type of sword . I agree that puncture wounds are indeed dangerous and more often fatal than a slash ; but if a body is cleaved from clavicle to mid sternum in a jungle environment far from any hospital . I would think that death by exsanguination let alone organ damage would be inevitable .

For inflicting puncture wounds I would think the budiak or many of the widely varied trailside booby traps would be the preferred weapons .

[Bill]

I got some pretty graphic accounts of the damage from the kris, all were from using it as a slashing sword. It was quite clear that the sword will pass through flesh & bone, completing the swing.

[ariel]

I think I already mentioned it here: a blade stabbing deeper than 2.5 inches anywhere into the human trunk damages a vital structure.
Slashing wound bleeds a lot, but stabbing kills.

[Bill]

We are talking slashing wounds several inches deep. He said he saw men's arms removed & it did not stop the blade from slashing through thier chest.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by ariel

I think I already mentioned it here: a blade stabbing deeper than 2.5 inches anywhere into the human trunk damages a vital structure.
Slashing wound bleeds a lot, but stabbing kills.

Then by that logic a 2.5 inch deep slash would qualify , no ?

[Federico]

Originally Posted by Bill

who served in the Southern Philippines from 1950-83. A few interesting things. The use of swords, spears, & bow/arrow against government soldiers was common untill 1970, then groups that opposed the gov. were funded & supplied from outside the PI, & the groups went from "primitive" weapons to superior weapons almost overnight. The interesting thing is that this fellow states it was easier to fight the better armed groups, as earlier ambushes were always well planned, & a quick retreat into boobytraps for the gov. soldiers. Better armed, opposition groups, became over confident, & stood thier ground; often to the avantage of the better trained soldiers. Typical of attacks, earlier in his career, were single archers hidding in trees, or groups that would have the high ground & shoot high into the air, so that the arrows would be coming staight down. Krismen often would wait in tall grass, & were quite feared, the wounds from the kris were always fatal, he states. He gave me many examples of the kris attacks & the damage done, as he said, the body never stops the blade. As to the barung, I was surprised, his opinion was that it was not as deadly as the kris. He stated he never saw a man survive a kris wound, but did see men survive barung wounds.

Ok, in the early 50s you have the Kamlon uprising, my Uncle served and was killed in that one. But before the MNLF start in the late 60s, what was the PI army doing down there? From all Ive heard after the Kamlon event (from people living in the area, books, etc...), til the MNLF times and uprisings down there were some of the most peaceful in the region in centuries (well as peaceful as it ever gets down there aside from general political terrorism against civilians, blood feuds, and crime). At least in terms of involvement of the army. Was this guy speaking of general fighting/feuds? Kamlon used guns, and there are many people who attest that after WWII guns were quite common in the area. Im sure people still used kris and barong for whatever personal reasons, but I havent heard the bow being common?

[Lew]

Originally Posted by ariel

I think I already mentioned it here: a blade stabbing deeper than 2.5 inches anywhere into the human trunk damages a vital structure.
Slashing wound bleeds a lot, but stabbing kills.

Ariel

A blow from a large heavy kris can cleave a man from the collar bone down through and into the chest cavity it can easliy remove arms,legs and heads. The straight kris cleaves more like short heavy European viking swords.


Lew

[zamboanga]

Hi Bill,

Would be interested to know where your friend was stationed at that time - Jolo or mainland mindanao?

I too am not familiar with the bow and arrow being of common use at that time, at least from Zambasulta's recent history.

[Bill]

I was very surprised to hear of the use of bow & arrow in fighting, I tried to be very specific, & his first hand experiences were, that it was the most common attack on gov. troops through out the South (50's&60's). Also he was very clear that ambushes with firearms were not that common untill 1970. I will try & re-confirm both, but think the results will be the same. He also told me that troops taken prisioners were always beheaded, that a man wounded by the kris could no longer fight, could not be left behind or moved, there was little to be done for him untill he passed; but a man shot, often, could still fight & as well, travel.

[Bill]

Just ran accross this: http://www.moroinfo.com/ch6_annexati...suloprint.html , know there is some real sensitive subjects here, not trying to raise any, but do find it interesting that the kris was still used against a trained military up to 1970.

[jmings]

On SFI I've read that records from Europian battles that cuts were more immediatly disabling but that punctures were more often eventually fatal. This agrees with the above posts.

[Battara]

I think part of what we are missing is how the kris was used. It was NOT a stabbing weapon. Most Filipino martial arts I know (including Moro) almost never used stabbing or thrusts with swords (some exception being northern Filipno martials arts influenced by espada y daga, which used rapier and dagger basically). They used slashing or chopping motions. This is even reflected in escrimia, arnis, kalis, silat, etc. in the way the stick is used - chop or slash. Stabbing motions were left to smaller arms, like the gunong, and later the balisong, etc. The kris is and was generally longer than the barong and, although the barong had a reputation to sever an arm or neck, it needed shorter range than the kris and especially the kampilan. Don't forget, as one eBay dealer put once, "the Moros liked to keep their swords "feakshly sharp!" I can still see evidence of slash marks on the horn plates on my Moro armour. This is also why you don't see Moro kris with sharp, pointy tipped blades (one exception being a Maguindanao ceremonial kris I had once that now Spunjer owns ). Slashing and chopping (especially slashing) was the key, NOT stabbing. On a more personal note, I once tried to wield some of my kris in northern escrima fashion with stabbing motions and they don't work very well. However, using them in slashing, whirling, twirling fashions as in sinawali ("weaving" - using two sticks in motion together) works wonderfully (provided you are not sloppy and cut a leg, which I did once during a demonstration when I had carpel tunnel syndrom in one hand - . I guess you can say I was a real cut up that night ). Live and learn (and wear thick pants? ).

[zamboanga]

Even today, krises and barungs are still being carried and used against the Philippine military.

In fact, video tapes of several beheadings were distributed in 2002 to media and the general population. of course what was eventually shown on TV were edited/blurred scenes of decapitations. but clearly barongs where used on these occasions. the western media described the barongs as "machetes."

[zamboanga]

When then President Marcos declared Martial Law in 1972 one of the laws he promulgated was Presidential Decree No. 9, which, among others, states:

"3. It is unlawful to carry outside of residence any bladed, pointed or blunt weapon such as "fanknife," "spear," "dagger," "bolo," "balisong," "barong,"
"kris," or club, except where such articles are being used as necessary tools or implements to earn a livelihood and while being sued in connection therewith; and any person found guilty thereof shall suffer the penalty of imprisonment ranging from five to ten years as a Military Court/Tribunal/Commission may direct."

This law and martial law in general brought about a dearth in the blade industry in southern philippines at that time. It was not that the kris and barongs became passe after 1970. Bladesmiths simply stopped making them.

When the mid-70s came, Filipino ingenuity made the screw driver a favorite weapon for self-defense - as it comes with a handy excuse for carrying it outside one's residence.

PD no. 9 was later revised over time but was not competely repealed.

[Spunjer]

Even today, krises and barungs are still being carried and used against the Philippine military.

funny you mentioned that. last time i was there looking for a kris or a barung via word of mouth, i noticed that those that are na nakapatay (been used to kill someone) are highly sought and thus, pricier; so evidently it still being used...

interesting thread so far.

[zamboanga]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

funny you mentioned that. last time i was there looking for a kris or a barung via word of mouth, i noticed that those that are na nakapatay (been used to kill someone) are highly sought and thus, pricier; so evidently it still being used...

That is if they are willing to part with it... in my experience they usually don't no matter the price...

here is a link about the beheadings captured on video: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/1829211.stm

[Federico]

Originally Posted by zamboanga

That is if they are willing to part with it... in my experience they usually don't no matter the price...

here is a link about the beheadings captured on video: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/1829211.stm

Thanks for the link, I remember watching that footage on the Filipino channel a few years back when my father was alive. I believe this was after shortly after the capture of a school by Abu Sayaff, and when they holed up in a hospital to be surrounded by Philippine troops in APCs, to only escape from the back (since somehow the troops didnt feel that they would be able to safely guard the back).

As for cut vs stab, another thing to throw in is targetting, targetting, targetting. What is the attacker targetting with his cut or stab. I would be more worried about a cut at my femoral artery than a stab to a large muscle mass such as my outside thigh, and vise versa, a stab to the jugular would be far more dangerous than a lateral slash to the bicep (which would even be a stopping cut as it would not properly sever the connecting tissue). Then there is the whole, what is the fine line between a cut vs stab. If I stab someone, and then proceed to cut out that stab, is it still a stab or a cut (make sense?).

[Spunjer]

That is if they are willing to part with it... in my experience they usually don't no matter the price...

...that's why i ended up going to aldevinco and ermita. otherwise i would've came back empty handed, lol.

[MABAGANI]

Originally Posted by zamboanga

When the mid-70s came, Filipino ingenuity made the screw driver a favorite weapon for self-defense - as it comes with a handy excuse for carrying it outside one's residence.

and the feared tool of choice...the icepick

[Federico]

Even before bans on swords, improvised weapons have always been popular in PI. I remember many gruesome stories my dad used to tell me about modified forks, 2x2s, and slingshots. The stories were alwas fascinating, particularly as he would explain why he had certain scars. Now this was in the more peaceful days of the 50s/60s

[zamboanga]

This is from the web.

[Spunjer]

...on the same vein:



check the barung on one of the guys

...improvised weapons have always been popular in PI. I remember many gruesome stories my dad used to tell me about modified forks, 2x2s, and slingshots.

indian target or pana comes to mind. pretty wicked stuff...