Turkish/Armenian sword

ariel · 21st June 2007, 01:28 AM

Quite some time ago, a Turkish sword was discussed on this Forum.
A comment was made that it was in fact of Armenian manufacture, from Istanbul.
This prompted a rather sarcastic remark of " Armenian? In Istanbul?"-type.
Well, here is another one, unequvocally Turkish with the name of Armenian master or distributor.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...6245&rd=1&rd=1
Armenians were THE artisans of both Ottoman and Persian Empires and the main force in the Russian Caucasus as well.

Battara · 21st June 2007, 01:55 AM

I guess it would be like saying that Jews could not have done the silver work on Yemeni khanjars because it is an Arab country - silly idea.

Zifir · 21st June 2007, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Quite some time ago, a Turkish sword was discussed on this Forum.
A comment was made that it was in fact of Armenian manufacture, from Istanbul.
This prompted a rather sarcastic remark of " Armenian? In Istanbul?"-type.
Well, here is another one, unequvocally Turkish with the name of Armenian master or distributor.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...6245&rd=1&rd=1
Armenians were THE artisans of both Ottoman and Persian Empires and the main force in the Russian Caucasus as well.

Nationalism is a type of illness which also causes memory loss..

mavi1970 · 21st June 2007, 02:47 PM

I really don't think we need to get into a nation or state bashing. If someone makes comments against any race, nationality, or ethinc group here they should be reprimanded immediately, as an individual. Comments against anyone should not be tolerated, and comments also against a state should carry the same degree of intolerance. This is a forum on a wonderful hobby of sword collecting, not idiotic racism.

ErnestoJuan · 21st June 2007, 08:49 PM

hear hear, I completely agree with the previous poster.

Valjhun · 21st June 2007, 09:49 PM

well, well, I agree also of course.

If we stick to that sword I must tell that I don't like it (personal opinion) whoever manufactured it....

Zifir · 22nd June 2007, 07:57 AM

Vox populi, vox dei.

mavi1970 · 22nd June 2007, 06:30 PM

The voice of the people is the voice of God..... how does that have anything to do with this discussion????

Battara · 22nd June 2007, 07:48 PM

What intrigues me are the many peoples within the former Ottoman Empire - although all "Ottomans" they yet had their own cultural flavor on Turkish forms, like a Balkan yataghan or a bichaq from Turkey proper and a bichaq from Bosnia.

ariel · 23rd June 2007, 12:51 AM

Ottoman Empire, especially in its beginning and middle age, was a fascinating societal phenomenon. It had state-maintained hospitals, homes for the elderly and hostels for the travellers. It allowed incredible degree ( for the time, especially when compared with Europe) of cultural and religious freedom and authonomy. Local "flavors" were flourishing, and it is not surprising that we can see weapons of a general Ottoman pattern, but unmistakably " local". Quoting Daskalov& Kovacheva's book "Weaponry of the past":
" In the course of half a milennium, Turkey remained a country of paradoxes where nothing was impossible. Savage fanaticism and surprising religious tolerance, brutal oppression and the magnanimity of knights, orderly state organization and astonishing anarchy, a first rate legal system and boundless arbitrary rule, all these existed hand in hand...This is to be seen particularly clearly in matters bound up with the production and possession of arms."
This is coming from the Bulgarians, whose country was dominated by the Ottomans for several centuries!
In a way, in many regards it was very similar to the Roman Empire, just not as well administered

mavi1970 · 23rd June 2007, 02:07 PM

I would have to agree with you there Ariel. religious, cultural and also political freedom to a lesser degree in a time when other societies were not as foregiving. But as with any large empires it imploded due to glutiny.

21st June 2007, 01:28 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Turkish/Armenian sword Quite some time ago, a Turkish sword was discussed on this Forum. A comment was made that it was in fact of Armenian manufacture, from Istanbul. This prompted a rather sarcastic remark of " Armenian? In Istanbul?"-type. Well, here is another one, unequvocally Turkish with the name of Armenian master or distributor. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...6245&rd=1&rd=1 Armenians were THE artisans of both Ottoman and Persian Empires and the main force in the Russian Caucasus as well.

21st June 2007, 01:55 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	I guess it would be like saying that Jews could not have done the silver work on Yemeni khanjars because it is an Arab country - silly idea.

21st June 2007, 02:47 PM	#4
mavi1970 Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada Posts: 90	I really don't think we need to get into a nation or state bashing. If someone makes comments against any race, nationality, or ethinc group here they should be reprimanded immediately, as an individual. Comments against anyone should not be tolerated, and comments also against a state should carry the same degree of intolerance. This is a forum on a wonderful hobby of sword collecting, not idiotic racism.

21st June 2007, 08:49 PM	#5
ErnestoJuan Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Europa Posts: 60	hear hear, I completely agree with the previous poster.

21st June 2007, 09:49 PM	#6
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	well, well, I agree also of course. If we stick to that sword I must tell that I don't like it (personal opinion) whoever manufactured it....

22nd June 2007, 07:57 AM	#7
Zifir Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	Vox populi, vox dei.

22nd June 2007, 06:30 PM	#8
mavi1970 Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada Posts: 90	The voice of the people is the voice of God..... how does that have anything to do with this discussion????

22nd June 2007, 07:48 PM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	What intrigues me are the many peoples within the former Ottoman Empire - although all "Ottomans" they yet had their own cultural flavor on Turkish forms, like a Balkan yataghan or a bichaq from Turkey proper and a bichaq from Bosnia.

23rd June 2007, 12:51 AM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Ottoman Empire, especially in its beginning and middle age, was a fascinating societal phenomenon. It had state-maintained hospitals, homes for the elderly and hostels for the travellers. It allowed incredible degree ( for the time, especially when compared with Europe) of cultural and religious freedom and authonomy. Local "flavors" were flourishing, and it is not surprising that we can see weapons of a general Ottoman pattern, but unmistakably " local". Quoting Daskalov& Kovacheva's book "Weaponry of the past": " In the course of half a milennium, Turkey remained a country of paradoxes where nothing was impossible. Savage fanaticism and surprising religious tolerance, brutal oppression and the magnanimity of knights, orderly state organization and astonishing anarchy, a first rate legal system and boundless arbitrary rule, all these existed hand in hand...This is to be seen particularly clearly in matters bound up with the production and possession of arms." This is coming from the Bulgarians, whose country was dominated by the Ottomans for several centuries! In a way, in many regards it was very similar to the Roman Empire, just not as well administered

23rd June 2007, 02:07 PM	#11
mavi1970 Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada Posts: 90	I would have to agree with you there Ariel. religious, cultural and also political freedom to a lesser degree in a time when other societies were not as foregiving. But as with any large empires it imploded due to glutiny.