ID help with my collection

christek · 10th June 2012, 08:53 AM

Hello, my name is Chris and I am a new member to this forum and to sword collecting. I am a history teacher but by no means a sword expert. I have only recently purchased three swords and hope to get many more. I currently have 2 (19th Century?) Tulwars and what I believe is a 1875 Spanish officer’s sword. These pieces were not very expensive so I am not going to be too surprised if they are not genuine, but they do seem quite old. One Tulwar is obviously missing the pommel guard but I still like the appearance. The other Tulwar has a very small grip; I can barely fit my hand on it, is that normal? There does not appear to be any markings on any of the blades besides the markings shown: 1875 and Toledo in the photos. I would like someone who knows more than myself to help me ID these pieces, or confirm my findings. Regards.

fernando · 10th June 2012, 10:51 AM

Hi Christek
Welcome to the forum.
Still no photos attached

Dom · 10th June 2012, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by christek

These pieces were not very expensive so I am not going to be too surprised if they are not genuine, but they do seem quite old.

Welcome christek
here we never judge our edged weapons according with the money we paid to get it,
in fact we NEVER talk about money, it's indecent between us

nevertheless we have a forum for commercial exchange
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=8
the main criteria is as well as you said yourself, this sword, or this dagger is pleasant for you,
that is the essential matter

your Tulwars are real Indian weapons, but it's not exactly my field,
there are some guys more informed than me, could be able to bring you an acute answer

about the Spanish officer’s sword, please consult may be
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=12

good start with these three items

all the best

à +

Dom

christek · 10th June 2012, 03:47 PM

Hi Dom, Thanks for reply

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom

Welcome christek
here we never judge our edged weapons according with the money we paid to get it,
in fact we NEVER talk about money, it's indecent between us

I understand and think that’s great! I will refrain from using any monetary terms in this forum.

I have always had a few replica swords that I love, but I have just found out having the real thing is even more pleasant! I hope to learn a lot more and be able to contribute to this great site! Thanks for the links and the advice.

Cheers

David R · 10th June 2012, 04:58 PM

Small hilts are the norm with Tulwars, partly because the locals are generaly a fine boned race, and partly because sometimes , (hunting swords in particular ) they are gripped with the forefinger over the guard.

VANDOO · 10th June 2012, 07:14 PM

CONGRADULATIONS ALL THREE LOOK AUTHENTIC TO ME. NONE ARE IN MY FIELD BUT THE TWO TULWAR APPEAR TO BE OLD ONES MOST LIKELY FROM SOME OLD INDIA ARSENAL. LARGE STOCKS OF THESE WERE FOUND IN MOST ARSENALS OF THE TIMES SOME EVEN HAVE VERY GOOD BLADES, WOOTZ IS NOT UNKNOWN.
THESE ARSNEAL SWORDS ARE A GOOD PLACE TO START TO LEARN ABOUT INDIAN SWORDS AS THEY ARE NOT EXPENSIVE AND NO ONE HAS MADE REPLICAS OR EXPENSIVE FAKES TO SELL AS REAL OLD ONES.

christek · 11th June 2012, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

CONGRADULATIONS ALL THREE LOOK AUTHENTIC TO ME. NONE ARE IN MY FIELD BUT THE TWO TULWAR APPEAR TO BE OLD ONES MOST LIKELY FROM SOME OLD INDIA ARSENAL. LARGE STOCKS OF THESE WERE FOUND IN MOST ARSENALS OF THE TIMES SOME EVEN HAVE VERY GOOD BLADES, WOOTZ IS NOT UNKNOWN.
THESE ARSNEAL SWORDS ARE A GOOD PLACE TO START TO LEARN ABOUT INDIAN SWORDS AS THEY ARE NOT EXPENSIVE AND NO ONE HAS MADE REPLICAS OR EXPENSIVE FAKES TO SELL AS REAL OLD ONES.

Hi Vandoo,

Thank you for your reply, after some more research I am of the opinion that these are authentic. The tulwars could be as old as 1800 up to 1900, it is very hard to find out a more comprehensive date. The blades appear to be in good condition (the complete tulwar is also very sharp). I understand many from this period may have been constructed using British made blades, but I am yet to discover how one would know this in the absence of markings. I love my tulwars and hope to obtain more or them. In the meantime I will read up as much as I can about them to learn more regarding the ID of these swords. Regards.

christek · 11th June 2012, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David R

Small hilts are the norm with Tulwars, partly because the locals are generaly a fine boned race, and partly because sometimes , (hunting swords in particular ) they are gripped with the forefinger over the guard.

Hi David,
Yes that makes sense- The tulwar appears to have a better feel to it when one puts a forefinger over the guard, at least with my hand anyway. It appears easier to control, but if if I was to swing this in battle I think it would cause me a hand injury!

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 11th June 2012, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by christek

Hi David,
Yes that makes sense- The tulwar appears to have a better feel to it when one puts a forefinger over the guard, at least with my hand anyway. It appears easier to control, but if if I was to swing this in battle I think it would cause me a hand injury!

Salaams christek ~ Welcome to the Forum. Nice to start with Indian weapons(It is a giant) and for a great review see the thread about the Indian Museum ...type into search ~ Chowmahalla Palace Arms Collection ~ great pictures abound !

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Emanuel · 12th June 2012, 06:29 AM

Hi Chris, welcome to the forum!

The shape of the two tulwar hilts is often associated with Sikhs. Don't recall the source on that, but it comes with the caveat that Sikhs, like everyone else in India, used whatever was available, regardless of details. That said, the rosette pommel "washer" points to Rajasthani work. Late 19th century in my opinion.

Regards,
Emanuel

christek · 12th June 2012, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams christek ~ Welcome to the Forum. Nice to start with Indian weapons(It is a giant) and for a great review see the thread about the Indian Museum ...type into search ~ Chowmahalla Palace Arms Collection ~ great pictures abound !

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Ibrahiim,

Thank you for your reply and the link- What a great collection! I love the unusual shapes and designs of some of those weapons. I now want an Indian round shield to go with my Tulwars!

One thing I noticed in that collection, was that most (if not all) the tulwar pommel spikes (sorry for the uneducated labelling

) are all rounded, while on the pieces I own they appear to be more pointed. I wonder if this is just a coincidence, or if this may be somewhat of a tool we can use to establish the make/era of the tulwars.
Regards.

christek · 12th June 2012, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emanuel

Hi Chris, welcome to the forum!

The shape of the two tulwar hilts is often associated with Sikhs. Don't recall the source on that, but it comes with the caveat that Sikhs, like everyone else in India, used whatever was available, regardless of details. That said, the rosette pommel "washer" points to Rajasthani work. Late 19th century in my opinion.

Regards,
Emanuel

Hi Emanual,

Thank you for the reply; very interesting suggestions. I will do some research regarding 'rosette pommel washers' and 'Rajasthani' as I do not currently understand their meanings. From my limited understanding and research I agree that these tulwars could date from the late 19th Century.

Thank you, and kind regards.

David R · 12th June 2012, 10:48 PM

Re tulwars, acording to the late great H. Russel Robinson, battle tulwars widen slightly to the point, and are generaly older, and hunting tulwars narrow slightly to the point, and are generaly later. The area designated being the point of optimal percussion which is usualy one third of the total length down from the point. In hunting there is little risk of another blade cutting off the forefinger. In battle the sword is used to strike only, defence and parrying is done with the shield.
India is a huge country, and there is a lot of variation in detail of hilts and blades, and blades were traded all over India, and the world.
The best diagnostic for an Indian blade is the existance of a blunt section on the first 2 inches of the blade next the hilt, as in never sharpened and intended to be left blunt, known as the "Indian ricasso".
This site is a rich source of information, and a delight to explore, enjoy your visits, and welcome to the wonderfull world of collecting. XD

G. McCormack · 13th June 2012, 02:06 AM

Christek-

Your tulwar hilts are designed with the same intent as many viking hilts. The goal is to lock the hand in place. The wrist is disabled. It's less about hand size, but more about no little wrist flicks. Swords used in this way emphasize an edge moving closer to perpendicular to the target instead of parallel, to maximize contact between the edge and the target. When more wrist mobility comes into play, contact takes place in a more parallel manner.

Dom · 13th June 2012, 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by christek

I now want an Indian round shield to go with my Tulwars!

.

... I did it

both items have been found in 80's when I was in KSA,
I bought them in Jeddah, when the antiques shops were close the airport ... on that time

à +

Dom

Emanuel · 13th June 2012, 06:46 AM

Hi Chris,

The the top of the handle (pommel) consists essentially of a large disk and a large somewhat conical or semi-spherical "nut". Between them is a washer, with rosette or sun burst shape. This sunburst-shaped washer has been associated with swords from the state of Rajasthan, see this thread:http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4479 Of course given India's size and complexity it could be from any number of armouries around the country.

Regards,
Emanuel

Quote:

Originally Posted by christek

Hi Emanual,

Thank you for the reply; very interesting suggestions. I will do some research regarding 'rosette pommel washers' and 'Rajasthani' as I do not currently understand their meanings. From my limited understanding and research I agree that these tulwars could date from the late 19th Century.

Thank you, and kind regards.

christek · 13th June 2012, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G. McCormack

Christek-

Your tulwar hilts are designed with the same intent as many viking hilts. The goal is to lock the hand in place. The wrist is disabled. It's less about hand size, but more about no little wrist flicks. Swords used in this way emphasize an edge moving closer to perpendicular to the target instead of parallel, to maximize contact between the edge and the target. When more wrist mobility comes into play, contact takes place in a more parallel manner.

Very interesting!

A (very careful) enactment of the above, using the tulwar proves this statement very true. Of course, I am completely untrained in tulwar fighting, but I could tell the sword is not designed for wrist mobility; The user has to swing, or bring down his whole arm, a process completely contrasting to other sword designs and fighting: such as rapiers and fencing.

I thought I would post a photo of some Viking examples to note the hilt design and illustrate the similar process.

10th June 2012, 08:53 AM	#1
christek Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 52	ID help with my collection Hello, my name is Chris and I am a new member to this forum and to sword collecting. I am a history teacher but by no means a sword expert. I have only recently purchased three swords and hope to get many more. I currently have 2 (19th Century?) Tulwars and what I believe is a 1875 Spanish officer’s sword. These pieces were not very expensive so I am not going to be too surprised if they are not genuine, but they do seem quite old. One Tulwar is obviously missing the pommel guard but I still like the appearance. The other Tulwar has a very small grip; I can barely fit my hand on it, is that normal? There does not appear to be any markings on any of the blades besides the markings shown: 1875 and Toledo in the photos. I would like someone who knows more than myself to help me ID these pieces, or confirm my findings. Regards. Attached Images Last edited by christek; 10th June 2012 at 02:09 PM.

12th June 2012, 10:48 PM	#13
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	Re tulwars, acording to the late great H. Russel Robinson, battle tulwars widen slightly to the point, and are generaly older, and hunting tulwars narrow slightly to the point, and are generaly later. The area designated being the point of optimal percussion which is usualy one third of the total length down from the point. In hunting there is little risk of another blade cutting off the forefinger. In battle the sword is used to strike only, defence and parrying is done with the shield. India is a huge country, and there is a lot of variation in detail of hilts and blades, and blades were traded all over India, and the world. The best diagnostic for an Indian blade is the existance of a blunt section on the first 2 inches of the blade next the hilt, as in never sharpened and intended to be left blunt, known as the "Indian ricasso". This site is a rich source of information, and a delight to explore, enjoy your visits, and welcome to the wonderfull world of collecting. XD Last edited by David R; 12th June 2012 at 10:54 PM. Reason: Added information.

10th June 2012, 10:51 AM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Christek Welcome to the forum. Still no photos attached

10th June 2012, 04:58 PM	#5
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	Small hilts are the norm with Tulwars, partly because the locals are generaly a fine boned race, and partly because sometimes , (hunting swords in particular ) they are gripped with the forefinger over the guard.

10th June 2012, 07:14 PM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	CONGRADULATIONS ALL THREE LOOK AUTHENTIC TO ME. NONE ARE IN MY FIELD BUT THE TWO TULWAR APPEAR TO BE OLD ONES MOST LIKELY FROM SOME OLD INDIA ARSENAL. LARGE STOCKS OF THESE WERE FOUND IN MOST ARSENALS OF THE TIMES SOME EVEN HAVE VERY GOOD BLADES, WOOTZ IS NOT UNKNOWN. THESE ARSNEAL SWORDS ARE A GOOD PLACE TO START TO LEARN ABOUT INDIAN SWORDS AS THEY ARE NOT EXPENSIVE AND NO ONE HAS MADE REPLICAS OR EXPENSIVE FAKES TO SELL AS REAL OLD ONES.

12th June 2012, 06:29 AM	#10
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Chris, welcome to the forum! The shape of the two tulwar hilts is often associated with Sikhs. Don't recall the source on that, but it comes with the caveat that Sikhs, like everyone else in India, used whatever was available, regardless of details. That said, the rosette pommel "washer" points to Rajasthani work. Late 19th century in my opinion. Regards, Emanuel

13th June 2012, 02:06 AM	#14
G. McCormack Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 131	Christek- Your tulwar hilts are designed with the same intent as many viking hilts. The goal is to lock the hand in place. The wrist is disabled. It's less about hand size, but more about no little wrist flicks. Swords used in this way emphasize an edge moving closer to perpendicular to the target instead of parallel, to maximize contact between the edge and the target. When more wrist mobility comes into play, contact takes place in a more parallel manner.