Dagger from India?

corrado26 · 16th March 2019, 06:08 PM

I've got this dagger today and would like to know where it comes from and how old or modern it may be. The grip is made as far as I can see of horn, the sheeth is from iron with silver decoration. The blade is two-edged with a gold koftgari on both sides. Total length is 282 mm, the blade has 150 mm and is 31 mm wide.
Regards
corrado26

A.alnakkas · 16th March 2019, 06:42 PM

This style is a Lebanese style. Most are coming from Jezzine, Lebanon but in far lesser quality. The one you show is probably the best I have seen but there are a few things to point out. The scabbard is of typical Syrian construction. It is not uncommon to see daggers from other parts of the Levant having editions done in Syria.

I also think that this dagger had very recent editions, likely done by one of the Syrian swordmakers who migrated to Lebanon after the Syrian civil war. But I could be wrong here.

Though the best feature is the blade, likely a heirloom and VERY well made.

Let me know if you ever wanted to part with it.

corrado26 · 16th March 2019, 07:10 PM

Many thanks for your very interesting explanations I'd never thought of Lebanon or Syria. If I ever want to part with it, I'll contact you, promised!
corrado26

ariel · 16th March 2019, 07:11 PM

Agree : Lebanon.
And, BTW, Syrian silver koftgari is very reminiscent of the one we have discussed in the Pala topic.

motan · 17th March 2019, 02:21 AM

Hi Corrado26,
I agree with Ariel and A.Alnakkas. It is Lebanese. The hilt from a single round piece of horn, the thin ferrule that connects the hilt and the blade and guard, or guard-like piece with the pointy middle that fits in the groove of the hilt are 100% Lebanese, and most probably from the Jezzine area.
It is not very old, but I see no reason to assume that it is recent. To me, it looks more like it has been cleaned with too much enthusiasm.
I also see a mix with Syrian elements - the blade looks Syrian and similar to some that of Majdali daggers of the round handle type. The scabbard also looks Syrian, but the point is a general Ottoman feature.
I have seen mixes of Lebanese and Syrian styles before and that should not be surprising. The separation of Syria and Lebanon as countries dates to the French mandate. Majdal Shams and Jezzine are not much further apart than a day's march on foot. It is known that many inhabitants of Majdal worked in the timber industry in Lebanon and had many contacts there.
Anyway, it is a very nice piece and I would't mind having it myself.
I added pictures of two daggers that are not similar to yours, but show a similar mixture of styles.

corrado26 · 17th March 2019, 09:38 AM

Many thanks but please tell me how this item has to be called?
corrado26

A.alnakkas · 17th March 2019, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

Many thanks but please tell me how this item has to be called?
corrado26

Lebanese dagger? :-)

Kubur · 17th March 2019, 11:03 AM

Modern Lebanese Majdali
I let to Motan the definition of the Majdali, but I assume that it's a Lebanese / Druze local variation...

ariel · 17th March 2019, 01:56 PM

Agree with A. alnakkas: just “ Lebanese Dagger”:-) Although one can legitimately call it "Jezzine dagger".

Majal Shams is a Druze village at the Golan Heights. It has its own style of daggers that is unmistakably characteristic: spool-like handle made of multicolored stacked elements. Due to its souvenir popularity and the fact that Golan Heights are currently in Israel similar daggers are now manufactured in other places in Syria and Lebanon.

Lebanese style largely stems from Maronite Christian workshop in Jezzine, established by Haddad family some 250 years ago. Haddad work became so famous that it earned an article in the National Geographic in 1958. Older examples carry handles similar to the one shown here. Its currently most popular style has a Phoenix-like handle mostly used for expensive cutlery sets. I suspect that by now other workshops are imitating Haddad knives.

These two styles are very distinct and should not be used in one sentence. The only common feature is a curved blade.

Here are pics: older style Jezzine dagger, current most popular Haddad knives and Majal Shams Druze dagger.

A.alnakkas · 17th March 2019, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Modern Lebanese Majdali
I let to Motan the definition of the Majdali, but I assume that it's a Lebanese / Druze local variation...

Nope. The style is specific to Jezzine, southern Lebanon. Has nothing to do with Majdalshams. Scabbard is likely done in Damascus or.... Beirut.

A.alnakkas · 17th March 2019, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Agree with A. alnakkas: just “ Lebanese Dagger”:-) Although one can legitimately call it "Jezzine dagger".

Majal Shams is a Druze village at the Golan Heights. It has its own style of daggers that is unmistakably characteristic: spool-like handle made of multicolored stacked elements. Due to its souvenir popularity and the fact that Golan Heights are currently in Israel similar daggers are now manufactured in other places in Syria and Lebanon.

Lebanese style largely stems from Maronite Christian workshop in Jezzine, established by Haddad family some 250 years ago. Haddad work became so famous that it earned an article in the National Geographic in 1958. Older examples carry handles similar to the one shown here. Its currently most popular style has a Phoenix-like handle. I suspect that by now other workshops are imitating Haddad knives.

These two styles are very distinct and should not be used in one sentence. The only common feature is a curved blade.

Here are pics: older style Jezzine dagger, current most popular Haddad dagger and Majal Shams Druze dagger.

While I agree in general with this assessment; the majdali dagger to begin with is not really only a majdali dagger. Production through out Syria produce different styles, some in De'raa and Damascus, even Aleppo and Deir alZor. While I managed to track the sources, I cant pinpoint which style belongs where.

There are also various images of Bedouins in Palestine and the Syrian desert with those daggers. Arabs did not wear weapons with any religious prejudice. You will find that even items attributed to Nejd worn by famous Druze characters.

I own a shibriya, of outstanding quality, made by a Nejdi sword maker to a Druze prince. Things are not as simple as they seem :-)

motan · 17th March 2019, 04:42 PM

Hi Ariel,
Nice lesson in history, and verifiable too. However, I did make some valid points and shown the examples to go with them. You can not deny that the blade and koftgiri, as well as the type of scabbard of Corrad26's look Syrian. Further, the Lebanese style was not invented by Haddad, but developed from more diverse local types in Lebanon, some of which were influenced by Syrian style. It would be strange if it was not so.

I want to take this opportunity to clarify a misconception about Majdali daggers. True, similar daggers were made in other part of Syria already early on. However, Majdal Shams had two main types: one which you showed in your post and the other had blades more similar to Corrado26's dagger, as shown in the pictures below.
The misconception is that only the ones with broad hilt, heavy blade and decoration etched in the base of the blade (like the ones you show) are genuine Majdali daggers. The type in the pictures was made in Majdal Shams, at least from 1910 (the oldest I have seen with date) and many are signed with the village name on the blade. You can look in Artzi's site under Magdali.

motan · 17th March 2019, 05:00 PM

An example of an older Lebanese dagger - unfortunately, I fell asleep during the auction.

ariel · 17th March 2019, 08:40 PM

Hi Motan,
I was intentionally brief and your comments filled the gaps. Many thanks!

16th March 2019, 06:08 PM	#1
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	Dagger from India? I've got this dagger today and would like to know where it comes from and how old or modern it may be. The grip is made as far as I can see of horn, the sheeth is from iron with silver decoration. The blade is two-edged with a gold koftgari on both sides. Total length is 282 mm, the blade has 150 mm and is 31 mm wide. Regards corrado26 Attached Images

17th March 2019, 02:21 AM	#5
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hi Corrado26, I agree with Ariel and A.Alnakkas. It is Lebanese. The hilt from a single round piece of horn, the thin ferrule that connects the hilt and the blade and guard, or guard-like piece with the pointy middle that fits in the groove of the hilt are 100% Lebanese, and most probably from the Jezzine area. It is not very old, but I see no reason to assume that it is recent. To me, it looks more like it has been cleaned with too much enthusiasm. I also see a mix with Syrian elements - the blade looks Syrian and similar to some that of Majdali daggers of the round handle type. The scabbard also looks Syrian, but the point is a general Ottoman feature. I have seen mixes of Lebanese and Syrian styles before and that should not be surprising. The separation of Syria and Lebanon as countries dates to the French mandate. Majdal Shams and Jezzine are not much further apart than a day's march on foot. It is known that many inhabitants of Majdal worked in the timber industry in Lebanon and had many contacts there. Anyway, it is a very nice piece and I would't mind having it myself. I added pictures of two daggers that are not similar to yours, but show a similar mixture of styles. Attached Images

17th March 2019, 01:56 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Agree with A. alnakkas: just “ Lebanese Dagger”:-) Although one can legitimately call it "Jezzine dagger". Majal Shams is a Druze village at the Golan Heights. It has its own style of daggers that is unmistakably characteristic: spool-like handle made of multicolored stacked elements. Due to its souvenir popularity and the fact that Golan Heights are currently in Israel similar daggers are now manufactured in other places in Syria and Lebanon. Lebanese style largely stems from Maronite Christian workshop in Jezzine, established by Haddad family some 250 years ago. Haddad work became so famous that it earned an article in the National Geographic in 1958. Older examples carry handles similar to the one shown here. Its currently most popular style has a Phoenix-like handle mostly used for expensive cutlery sets. I suspect that by now other workshops are imitating Haddad knives. These two styles are very distinct and should not be used in one sentence. The only common feature is a curved blade. Here are pics: older style Jezzine dagger, current most popular Haddad knives and Majal Shams Druze dagger. Attached Images Last edited by ariel; 17th March 2019 at 02:18 PM.

17th March 2019, 04:42 PM	#12
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hi Ariel, Nice lesson in history, and verifiable too. However, I did make some valid points and shown the examples to go with them. You can not deny that the blade and koftgiri, as well as the type of scabbard of Corrad26's look Syrian. Further, the Lebanese style was not invented by Haddad, but developed from more diverse local types in Lebanon, some of which were influenced by Syrian style. It would be strange if it was not so. I want to take this opportunity to clarify a misconception about Majdali daggers. True, similar daggers were made in other part of Syria already early on. However, Majdal Shams had two main types: one which you showed in your post and the other had blades more similar to Corrado26's dagger, as shown in the pictures below. The misconception is that only the ones with broad hilt, heavy blade and decoration etched in the base of the blade (like the ones you show) are genuine Majdali daggers. The type in the pictures was made in Majdal Shams, at least from 1910 (the oldest I have seen with date) and many are signed with the village name on the blade. You can look in Artzi's site under Magdali. Attached Images

17th March 2019, 05:00 PM	#13
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	An example of an older Lebanese dagger - unfortunately, I fell asleep during the auction. Attached Images

16th March 2019, 06:42 PM	#2
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	This style is a Lebanese style. Most are coming from Jezzine, Lebanon but in far lesser quality. The one you show is probably the best I have seen but there are a few things to point out. The scabbard is of typical Syrian construction. It is not uncommon to see daggers from other parts of the Levant having editions done in Syria. I also think that this dagger had very recent editions, likely done by one of the Syrian swordmakers who migrated to Lebanon after the Syrian civil war. But I could be wrong here. Though the best feature is the blade, likely a heirloom and VERY well made. Let me know if you ever wanted to part with it.

16th March 2019, 07:10 PM	#3
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	Many thanks for your very interesting explanations I'd never thought of Lebanon or Syria. If I ever want to part with it, I'll contact you, promised! corrado26

16th March 2019, 07:11 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Agree : Lebanon. And, BTW, Syrian silver koftgari is very reminiscent of the one we have discussed in the Pala topic.

17th March 2019, 09:38 AM	#6
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	Many thanks but please tell me how this item has to be called? corrado26

17th March 2019, 11:03 AM	#8
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Modern Lebanese Majdali I let to Motan the definition of the Majdali, but I assume that it's a Lebanese / Druze local variation...

17th March 2019, 08:40 PM	#14
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Hi Motan, I was intentionally brief and your comments filled the gaps. Many thanks!