Is this Indo-Persian?

[Iliad]

Hi all, this is a recent purchase..........as you all know by now, I buy edged weapons because they look pretty, and then wonder what they are! The back edge for about 6 inches back from the tip is quite sharp; there are no markings at all on the blade; the silver scabbard has been mended in the centre section , with an inferior metal (it has a greenish tinge, so maybe some copper in there); the handgrip has panels of what I think is ivory. I took the sword to a silversmith and he tested the metal and confirmed that it is silver. Solid silver scabbard and silver on the grip indicates (to me anyway) that it must have been owned by someone of status. The ivory(?) panels are dark on one side of the grip and light on the other, and I am told that ivory exposed to the light remains light in color and ivory kept in the dark turns yellowish, hence my thought of ivory rather than bone or other.
All comments welcome, and thank you in advance.
Brian

[TVV]

Brian,

This sword is somewhere from the Arab peninsula, or maybe Syrian, based on the hilt shape and the decoration on the scabbard. To me the hlit looks like bone.

Nice sword.

Teodor

[ariel]

It was supposed to be worn edge down. It does not look like a katana or a shashka:-)

[Jim McDougall]

Absolutely phenomenal Brian!!While Teodor is right, this does have initial appearance of Arab sabres and resemblance to the 'Baddawi' style hilts on many of them. The scabbard resembles those on the sa'if of Hadrahmaut and Yemen, however the carrying rings are not in the normal baldric style.

This scabbard has the carrying rings on the convex side, with blade worn edge up, in the style of the shashka. The right angled pommel on the hilt, Persian style crossguard, scabbard of noted Hadhramauti style (these are known to have been produced in Hyderbad, India) and triple fullered trade blade strongly suggest this is a Caucasian sabre, presumably Georgian and possibly even a Khevsur weapon.
With trade contacts with India, the features on the scabbard (the aghrab device on scabbard throat) and the wire wrap at grip neck (seen on Persian and Arab sabres, but some shashir styles in India also), these influences reached Caucasian craftsmen as well.

There are of course certain complexities in the elements of the sabre overall, but I would think this is a very interesting sabre of these Caucasian regions.

Further research may reveal more, but from first glance this is my opinion.

All very best regards,
Jim

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by TVV

Brian,

This sword is somewhere from the Arab peninsula, or maybe Syrian, based on the hilt shape and the decoration on the scabbard. To me the hlit looks like bone.

Nice sword.

Teodor

Hi Brian,
I wondered how long it would take for this to appear here! My initial comments to you appear to be correct in that it is from the Arabian Peninsula. I SHOULD have out bid you afterall as the new pics show it in much better light than the originals! Anyway WELL DONE> I might have to have a SERIOUS talk to you at some stage! The blade looks to me to be european even though it has no marks. Somewhat better in appearance the locally made.
Regards Stuart

[TVV]

Jim,

I completely missed the upside down suspension. I was wondering, could it be a blade mounted in Arabia for one of the Caucasian immigrants there, rather than arab style decoration making its way to the Caucasus?

Teodor

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Teodor,
To be honest, I missed it too as I was first looking at this, but something seemed amiss, and finally...bonk! there it was.
This piece has all the indicators that it may be one of the multitudes of variant sabres used in the Bedouin sphere, but the scabbard rings were the first clue.
Even more confusing, while this resembles a shashka 'gurda' style blade, which were copied from European forms, it seems more likely Caucasian,although lack of markings seems unusual.
I had suggested a Khevsur sword, which were often roughly furbished by native artisans, but these sabres typically were mounted in regular edge down fashion.

The scabbard throat has the stylized device known by the Arabian term 'aghrab' (=scorpion) and served as an apotropaic in the folk religion as protection against the evil eye. These, as noted, are regularly found on the scabbard throats of the Hadrahmauti sa'ifs which were also used in Yemen. These silvered scabbards, according to Elgood ("Arabian Arms and Armour") were typically produced in Hyderabad, India for export.

The scabbard, as mounted with rings at convex or blade edge upward means that the scabbard was worn with that 'aghrab' inward and non visible. Also, the decorative carrying ring bosses also faced inward. More puzzling is the center section, with crudely fashioned geometrics as would often be seen on the obverse (non visible) side of the scabbard.
Caucasian scabbards are typically decorated on the visible side, and quite plain on the inside.

The hilt, as noted, is intended to approximate the beautiful ivory and silver hilts of the Persian shamshir, the most desirable in the Dar al Islam, however the pommel cap, though beautiful silver, quite crudely done. The wire wrap at the neck, while sometimes seen on Persian shamshirs, is quite typical on Arab, Central Asian and Indian versions of shamshir. It does seem also a Caucasian affectation on some Khevsur examples.

While I cannot place for sure, the motif en cartouche on the scabbard panels seems Caucasian, the bird being one figure that seems to stand out.

I think that this sabre seems rather simply furbished by a village smith, with components and influences at hand. With distinct Arabian characteristics in imitation of the favored Persian style, and features suggesting Caucasian influence and last, the curious positioning of the carry rings suggesting Russian fashion......I think the closest we will come to final answer will be somewhere in the Ottoman sphere.

While admittedly 'speculation by the numbers' , these observations only present possibilities by recognizing these particular characteristics.
When trying to identify the many weapon form anomolies produced in the ethnographic world, we can often only recognize certain features and components that appear in the weapon. Without key markings or provenance, any accurate assessment must remain speculation, with plausible explanations.

Its still fun to make educated guesses!! and this sabre remains a beautiful example whose enigma makes its even all the more attractive.

All tne very best,
Jim

[ariel]

IMHO, there is not a trace of Caucasian influence: purely Arabian.
The blade with 3 narrow and very "mechanical" fullers looks , if anything, trade Syrian or N. African ( the worst, Heavens forbid, is a modern Georgian arts and crafts design). The silverwork is NOT Caucasian at all. The handle of Georgian swords widens toward crossguard, and Khevsurian swords have flat brass ( or, if expensive, silver) rings, just like the scabbard.
Look here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10110
My guess, the fittings were reassembled: the middle section of the scabbard covering is a primitive replacement. At that time, the adjacent suspension plates were put upside down.

[ALEX]

Ariel put it quite nicely, and accurately. This sword screams reassembly, and fairly recent. Even though it resembles a legit Arab sword form - so many components are out of match, and of low quality. It's hard to judge by pictures, but in my opinion it has been done by an amateur.

[broadaxe]

I'm relatively new in this field but have begun most recently to study Bedouin sabers. Re-fitting swords and scabbards was quite common. I've handeled several swords lately, some of them were untouched for dozens of years and they looked similar, meaning re-fitted during their working time.
Suspencion could have been edge down or edge up, no matter where the rings are.
Check this link, showing the Pope's visit to Israel with Kawas - ceremonial muslem body guards - that can bee seen during the first seconds, carrying swords. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-Psm...eature=related

Take also a look at this photo, from Beth-Lehem, 1934:

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent input Broadaxe, I see what you mean on the carrying rings...excellent photo too! Thank you so much. That does put things back to the Arabian sphere. While a rough sabre, it is the type used by Bedouins well into the 1930's.

Thank you again for your response Teodor.

[TVV]

Jim,

Thank you, I was not trying to be argumentative, and as I wrote, I completely missed the suspension before Ariel and you pointed it out. I agree that something did not feel quite right, especially in the crudeness of the workmanship, and I am with Ariel and Alex in dating this sword to the 20th century, perhaps even the second half of last century.
I still think it is a nice sword, even if if the scabbard and hilt were put together more recently. Hopefully it was made a few decades ago for local ceremonial use, and not as something to be sold as a souvenir.
Rehards,
Teodor

[ariel]

As per photo, the "edge-up" swords have suspension rings on both sides: to hang them from the baldric. The one under discussion has only one set of rings, i.e. to suspend it from the belt. Had it been designed in Arabia, it would have had two sets.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by TVV

Jim,

Thank you, I was not trying to be argumentative, and as I wrote, I completely missed the suspension before Ariel and you pointed it out. I agree that something did not feel quite right, especially in the crudeness of the workmanship, and I am with Ariel and Alex in dating this sword to the 20th century, perhaps even the second half of last century.
I still think it is a nice sword, even if if the scabbard and hilt were put together more recently. Hopefully it was made a few decades ago for local ceremonial use, and not as something to be sold as a souvenir.
Rehards,
Teodor

Hi Teodor,
Argumentative never crossed my mind, and your suggestion was well placed. I was trying to think of how the very clear Arabian characteristics might be associated with what I perceived as perhaps Georgian possibilities. In both of these spheres, swords were key weapons well into the 20th century, and crudely refurbished examples were common as tribesmen sought to keep thier weapons serviceable.
I think this is the charm of these relatively modern examples that were made for use as well as traditional wear , and it is often difficult to discern whether these assembled examples were put together for authentic purpose or for sale.
Whatever the case, I wanted to thank you for your kind response and addressing me personally, very much appreciated.

All the very best,
Jim

[Iliad]

Hi guys, thanks heaps for the learned discussion. I am always amazed at how much you can deduce just from looking at photos!
I like to attach a label to each of my pieces, for I D purposes, but how do I label this one in 5 words!!!!
I paid about 250 US Dollars for it, so didn't outlay too much. I've had my money's worth in enjoying the discussion!
Brian

[Jim McDougall]

Brian you did great in what you got this for !!
I'm glad you are working at properly identifying your weapons, as that is reflective in your interest in thier history, an admirable trait .

I have learned a lot in this thread as well, not only the reminder of one of the most important edged weapons...Occams Razor but in the research that I have undertaken in examining this fascinating sabre. In one of my posts I noted my course of deduction and emphasized that these observations were,
"speculation by the numbers". This does not always present correct answers.
I include this note as a reminder to myself, as well as to those interested in the serious study of these weapons.

The photo clearly shows the 'baldric' method of wearing the sabre, and while most Arabian sa'if have carrying rings near the top of the scabbard throat, it appears many have double carrying rings on one side of the scabbard. In this case, the rings seem typically mounted opposite the edge, and it would appear that the individuals are holding the sabres edge up, in a pose suggesting 'ready to draw'.
It does seem typical that the sword scabbard was grabbed in this manner as the sabre was drawn edge up. It does not seem too far fetched that a Bedouin tribesman placed these rings in such location to preparedly have the sword in position, 'quick draw' as it were.

In researching more on the Bedouin, their colorful history is entirely fascinating, and I recall complete intrigue in watching the compelling movie "Lawrence of Arabia" with Peter O'Toole.
I think of Lawrence's venerable book "The Seven Pillars of Wisdom" (which I used to display with a favorite, notably simple, Bedouin sabre I had) and
the quintessant Bedouin saying:

"...I and my brothers against my cousins, I and my brothers and cousins against the world".

A great reference for history on Arabia is found inexpensive in paperback,
"The Kingdom of Arabia and the House of Sa'ud", by Robert Lacey.

I also learned that the Bedouins, at least some of the tribal units, are well known for the raising of white doves. It is even suggested that the term 'Bedouin' derives etymologically from Phoenicio-Arabic , be=white ;
douim= dove, obviously this theory has the usual opposition in degree.
In any case, this may explain the 'bird' images in the cartouches.

It is noted that European preconceived cultural attitudes and need for established hierarchy in observing the tribal units did not necessarily work well in the broader scope. Apparantly the tribes and thier units are from the simple family unit, the 'tent' or 'bayt'; then the grouping of several tents, the 'goum'. and then 'ibn amm' ...the cousins.
The tribal leader, the sheikh (Ar.=elder) was the patriarchal figure of the tribe, however consistancy could change as relationships between him and tribal members and groups changed.

What all of this history means is that the assumption that this sabre was 'put together by an amateur' seems to fall in place with the perception that every weapon of somewhat substandard, less tham museum quality, is a 'tourist' piece, is too often randomly applied to many ethnographic weapons.

If I were to caption this sabre, and with all of the very helpful discussion placed here to arrive at some consensus, I would say:

A Bedouin sabre, mid 20th century

While this blade is definitely a 'trade' blade, it is of triple fuller form which is copied from European forms that were produced into the 20th century (similar examples are seen in "Boarders Away" Gilkerson). The crude fullers suggest native production, probably imitating earlier Hungarian sabres.
As I have been emphatically informed, the silverwork is not Georgian which is clearly correct after I have discovered the information on doves. I am grateful for learning that as well. The note on the carrying rings is also absolutely correct, and looking at Khevsur examples they are indeed flat and more refined.

Bedouin's typically did not have blacksmiths as handicrafts and such work were considered demeaning, in the 19th century ("History of Arabia", Andrew Crichton, 1833), however certainly by the 20th century, such restrictive attitudes probably were less prevalent. It seems quite possible this blade may have been furbished into a charming interpretation of the much admired Persian shamshirs, and regardless how crude the work, it was fashioned with purpose and probably worn proudly by at least one Bedouin tribesman.

All very best regards,
Jim