Medieval sword of type XIII A with with latten-inlaid decorations

[Cerjak]

Medieval sword type XIII A with with latten-inlaid decorations
This two hands sword is a typical exemplar of Oakeshott's type XIII A.
O.L. 143 .2 cm; blade L. 106.8 cm; blade width at hilt 5.5cm
Grip: two hands 27cm
2 parallel Fullers only in the upper section ( 42cm) with the same latten-inlaid decoration in the two sides: cross potent within a circle between a heart mark surmounted by a cross, and double 'Y' and star mark.
The blade shows signs of delamination near one edge.
Pommel: of type l1 wide: 7 cm
Cross guard of type 2 : 22.5 cm
Point of balance: 12 from the cross.
The size makes this sword very impressive .
period 1350-1450 ?

[Cerjak]

more

[Cerjak]

delamination

[Cerjak]

latten-inlaid decorations

[Cerjak]

latten inlaid

[fernando]

Magnificent sword, Jean-Luc.
I wish i could spot marks similar to those, but ...

[Cerjak]

Hi Fernando,

Thank you for your kind comment,for the star I have found a similar on one medieval blade ( see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20883
Best

Jean-Luc

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Jean Luc,
Beautiful great sword!!! and for all I can see, in my opinion this may well be a Passau sword, and of the period you suggest. These latten markings could well have been punched in later, but certainly later in the 15th into 16th as the markings comparable I have seen date slightly later.
The 'heart' and cross was a known Passau inlay (Cronau, 1885 p.18; Kinman p.65) end of 15th c. but the heart was usually inverted from the cross.

The encircled cross is the cross crosslet it seems was earlier use and by the 15th century the cross fourchee encircled was more commonly seen. This cross form may well have been used anachronistically or aligned more with specific conventions such as order or other imbuement.

The 'star' is not really a star but appears an interpretation on the 'pi' marks used in Milan early, actually a crown atop two 'tails'. This is of course a highly stylized version, but these kinds of stylizations (common on latten inlays) were known used by Stantlers around early 16thc .

While the early 16th century seems late for these types of swords, it is noted that the forms often remained in use well after the period used in the classifications and forms could remain in use concurrently and transcending those guidelines. Thus more accurate dating is difficult based on style or even these markings which as noted might have been set later.

[fernando]

If Jasper came around i bet he might wish to add some conclusions on both sword and marks .

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

If Jasper came around i bet he might wish to add some conclusions on both sword and marks .

Thanks Fernando.
Hope so.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thanks Fernando.
Hope so.

Notwithstanding i find your assessments well in business.
I was paging the catalog of Schweizerischen Landsmuseum and latten-inlaid symbols not equal but suggesting same type of attitude, were practiced during the XVI century, as you pointed out.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Notwithstanding i find your assessments well in business.
I was paging the catalog of Schweizerischen Landsmuseum and latten-inlaid symbols not equal but suggesting same type of attitude, were practiced during the XVI century, as you pointed out.

Looking forward to Jasper who has far more experience in these swords, and hoping my research is somewhat in accord.

[Cerjak]

Hi Jim & Fernando
Thank you for your research about the latten-inlaid decoration.
The cross in a circle are seen in several medieval blades (see type XIIA-4 record of the medieval sword) and also type 13a with also double fullers sold by TDM IN 2009 Who has also a cross and hearth. Unfortunately the picture don’t show it.
Also ,this cross seems to be for me a cross crosslet ( crusader’s ring)
best

Jean-Luc

[CSinTX]

I really know nothing of swords of this age but it looks like maybe some sort of black liquid was applied to the sword to form a "crust" over the top of the metal? But it was wiped clean from the inlaid areas to make sure those areas showed through?

Do the areas of delamination also seem to be sort of thick and heavy?

[fernando]

Oops !! Let's say these are pertinent questions; who's answering ?

[Cerjak]

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall]Hi Jean Luc,
the markings comparable I have seen date slightly later.
The 'heart' and cross was a known Passau inlay (Cronau, 1885 p.18; Kinman p.65) end of 15th c. but
.

Dear Jim

In this Sword from Nadrlje, Serbia we have the same symbols ( heart and cross only the location for the cross is under the heart.
Best

Jean-Luc

[Reventlov]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The encircled cross is the cross crosslet it seems was earlier use and by the 15th century the cross fourchee encircled was more commonly seen. This cross form may well have been used anachronistically or aligned more with specific conventions such as order or other imbuement.

A latten cross crosslet appears on the pommel of (at least) two swords of unquestioned provenance. One appearing in Oakeshott's Records was donated to the armoury of Alexandria in 1436-37 (year 840 in the Muslim calendar). The other was found in the River Tina in Northern Poland.

Originally Posted by Cerjak

The 'heart' and cross was a known Passau inlay (Cronau, 1885 p.18; Kinman p.65)
In this Sword from Nadrlje, Serbia we have the same symbols ( heart and cross only the location for the cross is under the heart.

Has any one ever seen a list or count of swords with this mark, or tried to compile one themselves? So far I have counted 10 examples... the swords I have found seem to be generally distributed in Eastern Europe; the western-most example is one in Germany (one of the Sempach swords), the rest I have found are the two in Serbia, and others from Poland, Slovakia... one is in the Hermitage, and one more was also from Alexandrian armoury.

[Cerjak]

Hello Reventlov,

Thank you for your comment ,Do you have some pictures for similar marks ?
If yes could you post it here ?
best
CERJAK



Has any one ever seen a list or count of swords with this mark, or tried to compile one themselves? So far I have counted 10 examples... the swords I have found seem to be generally distributed in Eastern Europe; the western-most example is one in Germany (one of the Sempach swords), the rest I have found are the two in Serbia, and others from Poland, Slovakia... one is in the Hermitage, and one more was also from Alexandrian armoury.[/QUOTE]

[Reventlov]

Originally Posted by Cerjak

Hello Reventlov,
Thank you for your comment ,Do you have some pictures for similar marks ?
If yes could you post it here ?

Hi Cerjak,
Before I post photos, I feel like I should mention that we may have crossed paths before in the myArmoury forum - I post there under my real name: Mark Lewis.

Here is my list of swords with the heart/cross mark. All are long-hilted, probably classifiable as types XIIIa, XIIa, and XVIa. The group seems to generally date to the 14th century.

1) Recovered from the tomb of Friedrich von Greifenstein, killed in the Battle of Sempach, 1386.

2) From the Alexandrian Armoury, inscribed with the name of Aristay, governor of the city for a short time in 1400-01.

3, 4) Two found in Serbia, both now in the Museum of Jagodina - probably you read the same article that I did?

5, 6) Two from (different) museums in Warsaw. Apparently excavated within Poland(?).

7) An un-hilted bladed in Wroclaw. There is a stamp on the tang similar to one of the Serbian swords (posted above). The stamped letter is different however, possibly a reversed S?

8) In the Hermitage, source unknown.

9) Auctioned by Hermann Historica, sale #65, lot number #1352. From a "Munich private collection".

10) From Husina, Slovakia. Possibly should be excluded from the list, the mark is not exactly heart-shaped.

[Cerjak]

Hello Mark

Yes , exact you had already offered your help to find a scan for "A Record of Armour Sales 1881-1924 ".
I would like to thank you again for the pictures & research you have posted here.
Hoping to find one with the cross on the top of the heart.


Best
Jean-Luc

[Reventlov]

Originally Posted by Cerjak

I would like to thank you again for the pictures & research you have posted here.
Hoping to find one with the cross on the top of the heart.

You're welcome.

I don't think I have seen any example of the cross-over-heart design before...