chilanum/ kanjar daggers Fakes ? Dates ?

francantolin · 24th April 2017, 07:52 PM

Helly everybody,

I'd like to buy these two chilanums/indian daggers
but a friend told me to be careful : maybe two more replicas

the sellers, specialised in knifes tell me they are authentics no fakes ,
not so old maybe early 20th century.

Not too expensive so...and with indians weapons we have so often replicas with fake damas blade...

the first chilanum told to be with bone hilt + wootz damas blade.

The second authentic too : but the koftgari and the scabbard seems too
recents!!!...

Whath do you think ?

Kind regards

francantolin · 24th April 2017, 07:57 PM

confusion with the pictures:

the second is the first ( & vice-versa !)

mariusgmioc · 24th April 2017, 08:17 PM

Very hard to say from the photos you posted.

The koftgary is definitely recent but the dagger can be older... much older. It is a rather frequent practice to apply koftgari on antique but otherwise mundane knives to make them more saleable. But then again, this looks to be genuine koftgari, and well made. So I don't think being recent makes it less genuine/valuable.

Other than that, the example looks good and made in the traditional way. The chiseld blade is almost unseen in recent production. So I don't think it is a fake. Early 20th century seems plausible to me albeit the blade can be significanly older.

Would definitely like it for my collection.

The recent scabbard has absolutely no relevance for assesing the blade but it is a nice extra.

PS: I managed to download and open the pdf file. Now that appears to be a recent dagger with a pattern welded and NOT WOOTZ blade. So, if the seller lies about this, ho much can you trust the rest? But then maybe I am wrong ...

francantolin · 24th April 2017, 09:01 PM

Hello Marius,

thank you,
I'll look about what you call ''pattern welded''
here another picture given by the seller of the ''pdf'' dagger- chilanum,

the hilt was complete on this picture but now it's damaged a little, that's why the seller makes a low price.

Do you think it's not a bone hilt ? Maybe Ivory

or plastic ? ? !!!!! ....

Rick · 24th April 2017, 10:40 PM

If those pictures are all you have to go by; speaking for myself I would pass.

About the broken tip of the knucklebow; I thought those were generally made of steel, in which case it would be quite a hard thing to break.

Is there a return guarantee?

Ian · 25th April 2017, 01:29 AM

Be cautious here. Can you handle these or are they being sold to you via the pictures? I would not buy them myself if only the pictures are available.

Ian.

mariusgmioc · 25th April 2017, 04:44 AM

It is as Rick said.

The knucklebow is supposed to serve as a protection for the fingers they are normally made of steel in one piece with th cross-guard and the hilt.

Whether bone or plastic, the second one is fake.

francantolin · 25th April 2017, 07:26 AM

Ok thanks all,

For the ''bone'' hilt kanjar-chilanum,
I was comparing with old ''precious'' items with jade, ivory hilt...

But indeed never saw a chilanum hilt model not made of steel or metal.

I'll look for return guarantee cause I can't handle it !

francantolin · 25th April 2017, 07:58 PM

Hilt like this one ... ( I found the picture on internet, India 19th )

made of ivory, the fingers protection will not be helpful, purely aesthetic ...

BANDOOK · 26th April 2017, 08:44 AM

Please do not touch them,they are reproductions from Jodhpur ,Rajasthan
I have seen many appearing in auctions being sold as antiques
best regards
rajesh

motan · 26th April 2017, 10:32 AM

I agree with BANDOOK. Since the typical Jodhpur patterns of folded steel are now recognized by most collectors, "remakes" have become more and more sophisticated. They include many types, like pieces that are made to look old, refitting of real old wootz blades with new hilts and koftgari, cleaning and "redecorating" genuine rusty old pieces and almost every imaginable manipulation. They also appear more and more in secondary markets that are not linked to India directly. Such perfect koftgari on a piece that is supposed to be sveral centuries old should always make you suspicious. Even in the best original pieces, some wear should be visible.

francantolin · 26th April 2017, 06:21 PM

Hello,

thank you everybody ! Yes this koftgari is too perfect for be true !

Sometimes so difficult to recognize fake from real,
especially for this kind of mixed items : not a ''basic'' indian/chinese replica
not a museum antique piece !

Suspicious too, the price: asking 300$ instead of 900 ...
What will a good copy cost ? 100-200 $ ( nothing ?!!

)

francantolin · 28th April 2017, 08:28 PM

What about this one with jade hilt ?!!

coming from The Louvre Museum in Paris ...

francantolin · 28th April 2017, 08:49 PM

Or this chilanum hilt,
sold by Christie's in 2014,

said to be from 18th century.

Who can after all really authenticate if fake or true ?

Ian · 28th April 2017, 08:49 PM

Francantolin:

We don't discuss values here (please read again the Forum Rules at the top of the forum page). Anyone wishing to discuss the value of an item should do so via PM or email.

You have a PM from me.

Ian

Quote:

Originally Posted by francantolin

Hello,

thank you everybody ! Yes this koftgari is too perfect for be true !

Sometimes so difficult to recognize fake from real,
especially for this kind of mixed items : not a ''basic'' indian/chinese replica
not a museum antique piece !

Suspicious too, the price: asking 300$ instead of 900 ...
What will a good copy cost ? 100-200 $ ( nothing ?!!

)

francantolin · 28th April 2017, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Francantolin:

We don't discuss values here (please read again the Forum Rules at the top of the forum page). Anyone wishing to discuss the value of an item should do so via PM or email.

Ian

Ok sorry !
I haven't noticed it, it was just for have an idea

thank you !

motan · 28th April 2017, 10:30 PM

Hi francantolin, I am not an expert on these daggers and I didn't mean that they were fake for certain, just that they have some a-typical features that make me doubt their age. There is always a chance that you hit a museum piece for just a fistful of dollars

.
Close up picts of the blade could reveal more..

24th April 2017, 08:17 PM	#3
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Very hard to say from the photos you posted. The koftgary is definitely recent but the dagger can be older... much older. It is a rather frequent practice to apply koftgari on antique but otherwise mundane knives to make them more saleable. But then again, this looks to be genuine koftgari, and well made. So I don't think being recent makes it less genuine/valuable. Other than that, the example looks good and made in the traditional way. The chiseld blade is almost unseen in recent production. So I don't think it is a fake. Early 20th century seems plausible to me albeit the blade can be significanly older. Would definitely like it for my collection. The recent scabbard has absolutely no relevance for assesing the blade but it is a nice extra. PS: I managed to download and open the pdf file. Now that appears to be a recent dagger with a pattern welded and NOT WOOTZ blade. So, if the seller lies about this, ho much can you trust the rest? But then maybe I am wrong ... Last edited by mariusgmioc; 24th April 2017 at 08:46 PM.

24th April 2017, 09:01 PM	#4
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 876	Hello Marius, thank you, I'll look about what you call ''pattern welded'' here another picture given by the seller of the ''pdf'' dagger- chilanum, the hilt was complete on this picture but now it's damaged a little, that's why the seller makes a low price. Do you think it's not a bone hilt ? Maybe Ivory or plastic ? ? !!!!! .... Attached Images

25th April 2017, 07:58 PM	#9
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 876	Hilt like this one ... ( I found the picture on internet, India 19th ) made of ivory, the fingers protection will not be helpful, purely aesthetic ... Attached Images

26th April 2017, 10:32 AM	#11
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	BANDOOK is right I agree with BANDOOK. Since the typical Jodhpur patterns of folded steel are now recognized by most collectors, "remakes" have become more and more sophisticated. They include many types, like pieces that are made to look old, refitting of real old wootz blades with new hilts and koftgari, cleaning and "redecorating" genuine rusty old pieces and almost every imaginable manipulation. They also appear more and more in secondary markets that are not linked to India directly. Such perfect koftgari on a piece that is supposed to be sveral centuries old should always make you suspicious. Even in the best original pieces, some wear should be visible.

28th April 2017, 08:28 PM	#13
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 876	What about this one with jade hilt ?!! coming from The Louvre Museum in Paris ... Attached Images

24th April 2017, 10:40 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	If those pictures are all you have to go by; speaking for myself I would pass. About the broken tip of the knucklebow; I thought those were generally made of steel, in which case it would be quite a hard thing to break. Is there a return guarantee?

25th April 2017, 01:29 AM	#6
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Be cautious here. Can you handle these or are they being sold to you via the pictures? I would not buy them myself if only the pictures are available. Ian.

25th April 2017, 04:44 AM	#7
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	It is as Rick said. The knucklebow is supposed to serve as a protection for the fingers they are normally made of steel in one piece with th cross-guard and the hilt. Whether bone or plastic, the second one is fake.

25th April 2017, 07:26 AM	#8
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 876	Ok thanks all, For the ''bone'' hilt kanjar-chilanum, I was comparing with old ''precious'' items with jade, ivory hilt... But indeed never saw a chilanum hilt model not made of steel or metal. I'll look for return guarantee cause I can't handle it !

26th April 2017, 08:44 AM	#10
BANDOOK Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND Posts: 624	Please do not touch them,they are reproductions from Jodhpur ,Rajasthan I have seen many appearing in auctions being sold as antiques best regards rajesh

26th April 2017, 06:21 PM	#12
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 876	Hello, thank you everybody ! Yes this koftgari is too perfect for be true ! Sometimes so difficult to recognize fake from real, especially for this kind of mixed items : not a ''basic'' indian/chinese replica not a museum antique piece ! Suspicious too, the price: asking 300$ instead of 900 ... What will a good copy cost ? 100-200 $ ( nothing ?!! )

28th April 2017, 08:49 PM	#14
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 876	Or this chilanum hilt, sold by Christie's in 2014, said to be from 18th century. Who can after all really authenticate if fake or true ? Attached Images

28th April 2017, 10:30 PM	#17
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hi francantolin, I am not an expert on these daggers and I didn't mean that they were fake for certain, just that they have some a-typical features that make me doubt their age. There is always a chance that you hit a museum piece for just a fistful of dollars . Close up picts of the blade could reveal more..